Eastern OLDLIST

[Neil]

hi All,

Eastern OLDLIST - a database for maximum ages of trees in eastern North America - is now located here:

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~adk/oldlisteast/

neil

[dbhguru]

Neil,

    Good to hear from you. Have you moved to New York yet? Thanks for bringing us up to date on the dendro sources. I was surprised not to see the Nelson Swamp white pine that Don Leopold's people dated back around 1997 or 98 located east of Syracuse in Nelson Swamp. Has it died? It was dated to 458 years at the time. I have no idea if the dating methods were acceptable to you all, but assume they were. I presume Jess Riddle knows of the tree.

     I was also surprised to not see the 379-year old yellow birch on Wachusett Mtn that Dave Orwig dated back in the mid-1990s. Has it died?

     Back in the late 1990s, Don Bertolette and I dated a Fraxinus americana in Monroe State Forest to approximately 230 years by ring count. I can take you to the tree along with another that was dated by forester Rexford Baker to 258 years in age back in 1989. The tree is still standing, but has lots of rot. These trees may not have been dated by sufficiently rigorous methods to qualify for the list. I realize that. However, if you get a chance to pay me a visit, I feel very confident that we can beat the 198-year figure for white ash, not once, but maybe a half dozen times. If you get a chance to come this way, I would take you to see the Neil Pederson pine in Monroe. Every tim, I go up there it whisper, "Bob, Bob, where's Neil? When is he coming to visit his tree?" Honest. I can hear the big pine whispering. You see, it is first necessary to sample some little mushrooms growing near the pine ..... uh, oh, skip that part.

    Seriously, what is your availability to come to the Oct 14-16 ENTS conference in western Mass and make a presentation on old trees and tree dating?

Bob

[James]

Bob,

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that anyone has kept track of which old pine out at Nelson Swamp is the oldest one.  I helped resample that site last year as part of some research one of my office-mates is doing.  We got cores dating back to only the early 1700’s, but all of the trees were partially rotten.

Jess

[Don]

Bob-
If it was before I graduated from UMASS, it would have been the early 90's...
-Don

[dbhguru]

Don,

  Time does fly. The tree is still standing, although it show progressive decay. Based on our ring count at the time, the tree is close to 250 years now.

Bob

[Neil]

hi All,

I've recently updated Eastern OLDLIST with a handful of new ages.

Perhaps the most interesting ages are:

- the confirmation of a 940 yr old Juniperus viriginiana in WV. the age comes from a piece of coarse woody debris

- a 410 yr old Aesculus flava in KY - the age is pretty solid back to about 1700. before that date there is nothing to really cross-date this sample against

- a 417 yr old Taxodium ascendens in FLA

- a 99 yr old Oxydendrum arboreum in KY

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~adk/oldlisteast/

neil

[mdavie]

I cut a piece of sassafras yesterday that may end up being fairly old (150+). This is from the same place that I saw a chunk of wood that I'm fairly certain was sassafras that was over 300 years by ring count. I went back to collect it but it had been hauled away. I did get a chunk of hemlock from there that's around 440 years. I'm going to go back at some point to check one other area for the stump that chunk of wood had come from.

Also, at a development in Cashiers they cut down a beautiful pitch pine that ended up being over 350 years. I got permission to go cut a cookie from that and two hemlock stumps nearby that were around 450.

I don't know what the hell I'll do with all these cookies I've been collecting over the years!

[edfrank]

Michael,

This is some of the data I would like to compile.  The oldest Sassafras on Neil's list is only 173.  If you have a solid ring count for 300 years on a sassafras, that would be worth noting.  The pitch pine at 350 is certainly worthwhile as well, even though the oldest is a 500 year ring count from Ontario, older dates on any of these species is worth documenting.  The old hemlock at Tionesta, PA was dated at 555, but there are few sites that have them over 400.  

Ed

[mdavie]

I roughed out the sassafras to around 180; the center has a lot of decay, which is why it fell over, so it's a little hard to count. I'm going to look again for the stump of the older one and get a slab if I find it.
There may be few sites documented with hemlocks over 400, but doubtless there are (were) a large number of sites that have them. I guess there may be opportunities for gathering a lot of samples with them coming down all over the place.

[edfrank]

Michael,

That is the big point.  There are many sites with older trees that are not being documented.  Dendro people tend to focus on sites that they know will give them good sequences and data to answer a specific question.  I am more interested in documenting old trees.  Many species are not regularly sampled, if at all, by standard dendrochronology studies and we have little good information on how old these species may grow.  I want to compile information from these species.  in other cases the examples of old specimens are just not common enough to do cross dating, or there may be some difficulty in cross-dating of species, so they either are not reported or not sampled.  I am sure old hemlocks are present on may sites, but we will only know of many of these sites when we examine their dead remains after their passing from HWA.  Still it is worth noting, in my opinion.  there are comparatively few sites that have been rigorously documented by dendrochronologists, sp gathering up these piece-meal data is important to further expand our knowledge of old sites and the age potential of various species.

Ed