White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

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ElijahW
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White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by ElijahW » Sun May 10, 2015 10:20 am

NTS,

http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2012/ ... wcomb.html

I came across this article a while back, but had trouble locating it again until today. I know there was some interest recently in reliable growth rates for white pine; maybe this would be of some help. A caveat: I haven't been to this plantation and can't confirm any heights, and likely everything has by now been cut. To summarize, this article is claiming 100 year-old 140' white pines.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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Rand
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by Rand » Sun May 10, 2015 11:08 am

The first objective of the research is to test the effectiveness of a modified shelterwood regeneration method and site preparation techniques for regenerating white pine on high quality sites.
I looked the site up on google earth, and you can clearly see the shelterwood cuts. The image is from 2013. Perhaps the overstory seed trees haven't been removed yet?

You can also see one corner that wasn't cut at all.
hunt.png
Last edited by Rand on Sun May 10, 2015 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dbhguru
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by dbhguru » Sun May 10, 2015 12:18 pm

Elijah,

I visit this general area fromtime to time. Possibility of 140-footers, but probably not in 100-year age class. Odds are these sre tape and clinometer measurements.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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tomhoward
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by tomhoward » Sun May 10, 2015 7:07 pm

Elijah,

Thanks for posting the article on these fast-growing White Pines. Too bad they most likely were harvested. They must have been a magnificent stand, but it's unlikely that White Pines planted in 1916 would reach 140 ft. in 100 years in a harsh climate like the Adirondacks.

Tom Howard

Joe

Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by Joe » Mon May 11, 2015 6:18 am

tomhoward wrote:Elijah,

Thanks for posting the article on these fast-growing White Pines. Too bad they most likely were harvested. They must have been a magnificent stand, but it's unlikely that White Pines planted in 1916 would reach 140 ft. in 100 years in a harsh climate like the Adirondacks.

Tom Howard
Though I'm the world's biggest critic of forestry leaders in academia and government- I think they may be right on this one. Though it's in the Adirondacks, I presume it's a low elevation, in a valley bottom, not on the slopes. At least right on the heights- for which there is no excuse for getting it wrong since they cut the trees down!

They say they are investigating how to perpetuate this fine species- for economic reasons- so, " Ultimately, researchers say they want to contribute to the restoration of white pine in New York State by demonstrating how well white pine can grow when planted and well maintained in high quality soil."

Here, they used the shelterwood method. I used to argue against shelterwood when I practiced forestry in the Berkshires of western Mass. where the soils are richer than most in the Northeast- but here in north central Mass. with much poorer soils due to sterile granite bedrock and sandy/gravelly soils- I see that shelterwood is a successful method for regenerating white pine. I've seen it come in so thick you can't walk through it. I never saw that in the Berkshires.

But, planting trees is not really an economic solution, outside of public lands, because you need to carry the cost for several decades, at compound interest- unless you consider the cost to go against the profit of the harvest- which few private landowners will care to do- and I don't think the IRS allows for that as good accounting practice. Also, planting pine on what otherwise might be a good hardwood site may fail--- the hardwoods will overtake the pine unless herbicides and other costly methods are used to keep the pine dominate.

But, if they really want to keep pine as an important species in NY, they should END HIGH GRADING and make sure all timber harvesting is managed by competent and honest professional foresters. Shelterwood for pine will succeed if it's a relatively dry site. If it isn't, don't even try.

But a nice pine site that is high graded will come back to a mix of pine and hardwood- while the stand will remain dominated for a generation by the poor quality trees left standing- often weeviled pine and low value hardwoods.

I'm currently marking a stand just like that in north central Mass. It was cut in 1999. No forester involved. The cut plan calls it a shelterwood because large openings were created- not by design, but because the logger high graded the hell out of the stand making some good sized openings. But, he left all the weeviled pine and low value hardwoods and he left 100% of the hemlock- so, much of what's coming up in the openings is hemlock, with some pine and with yellow birch where the soil is deeper. So, this "shelterwood" was a big lie and a failure. The service forester who got paid very well for contributing to the lie- is now retired with a huge pension- and he now is a consulting forester competing with me, which is easy, with that huge pension to undercut those of us who never lived off the taxpayers while signing off on phony shelterwood projects.

If that work had been done correctly, this current harvest would be worth far more- to both the owner and myself and it would be a much nicer forest for wildlife and aesthetically- so, I consider high grading loggers and the forestry establishment that supports such work to be criminal!

Oh, well, that's my rant for the day- but when it comes to forestry- it's mostly lies and propaganda.
Joe

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dbhguru
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by dbhguru » Mon May 11, 2015 7:21 am

Joe,

I would change what you ended saying to what passes as forestry could be characterized as you say. I don't think forestry has ever been that in theory and it isn't taught that way, but basically, we have a clueless public far removed from any understanding of the natural world. That makes it easy for the unprincipled to pull the wool over land owners. I, as all of you, routinely encounter people who have lived their entire lives in an area and don't know a single species of native tree. Nor do they recognize when a forest has been hammered by high grading.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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ElijahW
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by ElijahW » Sat May 16, 2015 5:11 pm

NTS, Tom, Bob, Joe, Rand,

Thanks everyone for the replies. When I read "140 feet tall" my interpretation was maybe some exceptional trees made it to around 130 feet. I'll try to get up to that area when I'm able, maybe when I return to Lake Placid. Thanks especially to Rand for the images. It's hard to come by recent Google Earth photos for the Adirondacks, so I appreciate your effort.

I've seen plenty of second-growth Adirondack white pines in the 130-140' range, always on well-drained sandy soil, but those trees would be several decades older than the Newcomb plantation pines.

Thanks again,

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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Rand
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by Rand » Sat May 16, 2015 5:34 pm

ElijahW wrote: Thanks especially to Rand for the images. It's hard to come by recent Google Earth photos for the Adirondacks, so I appreciate your effort.
Google has gotten creepy-good in the last couple of years. All did is throw 'Huntington Wildlife Forest in Newcomb' at it, and it spit out the location. Also keep tabs on Google Earth. They tend to update images every 2-3 years for many locations.

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ElijahW
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by ElijahW » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:27 pm

NTS,

I spent a few minutes this morning on the section of this ESF forest north of Rt. 28 (the smaller of the two halves). The section of woods on the other side of the highway was posted, though I would guess that arrangements could be made to visit. I stopped first at the ESF Interpretive center just down the road, and measured two white pines, at 111' and 112'. This is what I figured I would find in the "Working Forest" in question, but I was in for a surprise. I measured the heights of 7 white pines, plus one balsam fir. Here's what I came up with:

117.8'
121.9'
123.4'
124.3'
126.0'
127.6'
128.5'
Balsam fir: 85.5'

I apologize for the lack of pictures, but I was parked on the shoulder of the road and wasn't certain I was allowed to be where I was, so I worked quickly. The reported age seemed accurate, judging by the color and texture of the bark, and all pines in the area looked to be planted at the same time. The pines left after cutting had, with a couple of exceptions, excellent form, and were very straight. I would expect they have lots of growing left to do.

To address my initial question about the possibility of a 140', 100 year-old tree, I would say the forestry people were probably a little generous on their estimates, but not as much as I thought. A 130'+ tree on the south side of the highway would be very reasonable.

I also measured a tamarack, or Eastern Larch, on the edge of a nearby cemetery to 102.0'. I'm not sure what the max NTS height is for this species, but it's a personal best. From my travels around NY, I think it could reach 110' or so. The northeastern corner of Adirondack Park seems to be very productive for its native conifers.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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bbeduhn
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Re: White Pine Growth Rates Newcomb, NY

Post by bbeduhn » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:47 am

That's one incredible Larix! The Maxlist has it at 78'. It could be a European or a hybrid. If it is eastern, it should be a record shattering tree, barring any recent finds which haven't made it onto the list.

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