Woods Hole Research Center

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Don
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by Don » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:32 pm

While I am decades beyond my active years in academia (UMASS 1993), I am envious of the members of "The Cadre" and their opportunity to be involved at the ground level in support of the Woods Hole Research Center interest in Carbon Sequestration. Bob's interest in volume measurement accuracy and how that might relate to providing realistic measures of carbon, has started something!

Now would be an excellent time to get involved ! Ground-truthing satellite images of old-growth sound interesting?

You might ask Bob what new items LaserTech International has 'up their sleeves' !
-Don
Don Bertolette - President/Moderator, WNTS BBS
Restoration Forester (Retired)
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Grand Canyon National Park

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View my Alaska Big Tree List Webpage at:
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dbhguru
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by dbhguru » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:25 am

Don,

Good question. I received a gala tour of the LTI facility at Centennial, CO on July 30th and got to play with their TruPoint 300 and a beta version of their upcoming TruPoint 200h in their high-tech lab. Love'd 'um both. Decisions, decisions. Hmmm, why not get one of both? Well, Monica gave me the thumbs up on the purchase of both1 I'll have to pinch my pennies a bit, for a while, but heck, no sweat, 'cuz I'll be spending my time looking at screen displays and looking through view scopes.

BTW, the LTI marketing manager asked me if I'd be available for an LTI training webinar in the future that includes a consulting fee. I looked at him, paused for the longest time and then said, "Aw shucks, why not".

Well, anyway, on the plane ride back to Massachusetts, I worked up the way to mathematically compare the trunk volume added by a larger tree of known dimensions that exactly equals the volume added by a much smaller tree, also of known dimensions, based on the latest ring widths added to the two trunks. This will help to us in our explanations of why big trees that appear to be stagnant in their growth may actually be doing their job climate-wise quite well. More later.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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RayA
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by RayA » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:52 am

Brother Bob, does your comparison/calculation of ring widths between smaller/younger trees and taller/older trees take into consideration that the thickness of a ring varies from top to bottom of the trunk? Most growth occurs just below the crown, creating a taper in the ring thickness from top to bottom. So I believe the taller/older a tree is, a given ring will be thicker up above, and may or may not not even reach the low point on the trunk where a core would be taken to see the rings. As you know, eventually, the trunk loses its taper and becomes more columnar due to the increased ring thickness under the crown. Don't know if I'm understanding your post, but will that complicate your calculation?

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dbhguru
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by dbhguru » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:25 pm

Brother Ray,

Your points are well taken. I've cut corners with the model I've been fiddling with. That model is shown in the attachment. In it, I try to compensate for the interplay of factors using the form factor idea. I'm unsure if the compensation is sufficient, but basically, if a new ring is added to a conical shape at its base (or BH), and the tree grows in height, that new ring width still narrows to zero at the top, albeit a higher one. IThe model treats the rate of narrowing as linear, and for reasons we frequently discuss, it most likely isn't. Worse yet, if we have other trunk shapes and combinations of shapes, what happens to ring width from base to top is entirely unclear to me. Still I have blind faith that applying the form factor concept some how magically works - if the form factor is accurate for the tree being modeled.

Though the attached Excel model is idealized, it still is able to show that thin rings at breast height on a big tree can match fat rings on a small tree in terms of added volume. The spreadsheet allows playing what-if scenarios with the idealized situation.

I have a feeling that trying to model the thickness of new rings from base to crown is going to cause me to pull out what little hair I have left.

Bob
Attachments
RingWidthToVolumeComparisons.xlsx
(153.39 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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RayA
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by RayA » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:03 pm

I think the thickness of a ring might be a bit more complicated an issue than just a simple inverted cone with a continuous taper in its thickness. Growth is greatest just below the crown, where the downward flow of photosynthates is greatest. So, from the ground up to just below the crown, the ring thickness may increase as you go up. From that point just below the crown to the top of the tree, the ring thickness probably tapers in the opposite way, i.e., gets thinner as you go up. In a simple trunk form like a conifer with a single, continuous trunk from bottom to top, it might be easier to do the calculations than in the case of a hardwood whose trunk diverges into multiple leaders somewhere in the crown. In other words, I'm glad I don't have to do any of these calculations! :)

And on top of that, I'm not sure what I just said is even true!

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dbhguru
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by dbhguru » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:04 am

Ents,

After two days at the Glimmer Glass opera in Coopertown, NY, Monica and I made the drive through hell to eastern Massachusetts. Backup after backup. Then on Saturday evening we attended a gala dinner at the Woods Hole Research center in Falmouth, MA. While there, we were able to tour some of the facility and meet some of the research scientists and assistants. One research assistant was from northern Siberia. Her research is in monitoring the flow of arctic rivers. Fascinating stuff.

I had a chance to talk to Phil Duffy, the CEO of Woods Hole, and also to Richard Birdsey, retired USFS scientist who is in a kind of second career at Woods Hole. The conversation with Birdsey was especially interesting and further confirmed for me the separation between traditional research of the kind done in the Forest Service versus that being pursued by forest ecologists like Steve Sillett and Bob Van Pelt. That's not news, but it is unfortunate for reasons I don't want to discuss in this post.

My main contact with Woods Hole continues to be the Chair of the Board of Directors, Dr. William Moomaw, and on Friday he and I will host a researcher from UMASS Boston who specializes in terrestrial radar. So, we push on toward involving researchers from several institutions (Woods Hole, Harvard Forest, and UMASS) in direct on the ground measurements of our western Massachusetts big tree sites. It's not an easy sell, but step at a time.

On Sunday, the concert at Peterborough NH where we met Richard Power was lots of fun. I think Richard is going to take me up on my offer to visit some of our Adirondack old growth sites. He absorbs new knowledge like a very dry sponge. He's very,very smart, but quite approachable and friendly.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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bbeduhn
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by bbeduhn » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:34 pm

Bob,
I may be able to contribute a bit in NC. I won't promise hundreds of volume measurements but will do what I can. I just passed through Woods Hole in August, but didn't get the chance to stop in.
Brian

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dbhguru
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Re: Woods Hole Research Center

Post by dbhguru » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:06 pm

Brian,

We're not looking for quantity, but quality. Anything will be appreciated. If we model enough eastern trees, we'll be able to derive estimating factors to apply that Will make future work manageable.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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