Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern US

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DougBidlack
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Re: Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern

Post by DougBidlack » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:36 pm

Josh,
this non-native oak sounds quite odd. It would be nice to see the acorns. It seems they are too shade tolerant and fast growing to be black oaks. Could be a different species or, as you suggest, some kind of hybrid. I'd love to see them and your site some day as I have lots of questions about your property, trees and what you're doing with them.

Lucas,
I currently have 23 species including two swamp chestnut oaks. Both swamp chestnut oaks are doing very well but they are a bit sensitive while growing within the grow tubes (one of the two is now tall enough). I just removed grow tubes from all my sensitive trees last weekend. If this isn't done they will not properly harden up for the cold Winter and there is usually at least some dieback...sometimes quite severe if the Winter is tough as it has been in several recent years. At least three feet of growth must be above the tubes for me not to remove the tubes from these trees. In addition to oaks and hickories from more southern climates these sensitive trees also include all black walnuts and a couple London planetrees

Doug

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DougBidlack
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Re: Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern

Post by DougBidlack » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:40 pm

Lucas,
oh yes, almost all of the oaks are in southeastern Michigan but I have also planted a bur oak and dwarf chinkapin oak here in southeastern Massachusetts.

Doug

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JHarkness
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Re: Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern

Post by JHarkness » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:34 am

Doug,

They are not shade tolerant, I hope I didn't give you that impression, most seedlings on the forest floor die within 2-3 years of sprouting, unless they have access to more light for some reason. This fall I plan on photographing buds and acorns on a number of different trees to get an idea of how much hybridization is going on, I'd be happy to post photos when I get around to that.

I'd be happy to answer any questions about the property, please private message me with any questions.

Joshua
"Be not simply good; be good for something." Henry David Thoreau

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Lucas
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Re: Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern

Post by Lucas » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:16 am

DougBidlack wrote: I currently have 23 species including two swamp chestnut oaks.
I think you posted here before about this project.

Did you keep seed provenance records?

Which ones surprised you with their adaption to your site? I ask because your conditions might reflect mine and be a clue as what to plant or will survive.

What are your site conditions?

Which southern trees did well? cherrybark? Overcup?

I have 400 michauxii at 45 north that seem to be doing ok so far. Only 1 and 2 years old though. 14 species total.
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir

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DougBidlack
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Re: Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern

Post by DougBidlack » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:18 pm

Joshua,
yes I guess I did have the impression that they were growing within a forest. Sorry for misinterpreting you on that one. I'll have to gather up all my questions and start quizzing you soon. Maybe by this weekend if I can work it in.

Lucas,
I believe I have provenance data for almost all my oaks and other trees as well. I would say all of them but I'm sure a few have slipped through the cracks.

I'm honestly not sure that any of the oaks have surprised me because I did a bunch of homework well before I made any collections. I suppose the bur oaks from Texas might be the biggest surprise, especially the one from around Killeen, I think. Texas gets pretty cold though and bur oaks are unusually hardy so I can't say I was super surprised.

Climate info is from General Motors Proving Grounds in Milford, MI which is only 2.7 miles to the northwest of my dad's house. Records date back to 1928. The annual average precipitation from 1981 to 2010 is 32.53" and the mean temperature was 47.2 F. From 1928 to 1993 before I planted any oaks the coldest temperature ever recorded was -22 F. It then went down to -23 F in early 1994 also just before I planted my first acorns. It remained mostly warm until 2014 when there were 31 days that went below 0 F (a record) and the coldest temperature was -18 F. 2015 was even worse because the coldest temperature went all the way down to -27 F which was the coldest temperature recorded at that site. My oldest swamp chestnut oak is only in its' 8th growing season and it experienced some dieback in the Winter of 2014/2015 because it was so cold and I didn't remove the grow tube. At the end of 2017 this tree was 8' 3" tall and it may not be much more than 9' tall now. My other tree is even younger with only three growing seasons. When I removed the grow tube last weekend it was 6' 11" tall. Both trees were grown from acorns collected from southern Illinois. I have thought Illinois to be a good area to collect from because it is hotter and has a more variable climate than southeastern Michigan.

All of the southern trees have done well except for the lone southern red oak but that is because it is planted in a site with lots of gravel. I knew it was a bad site because of the short and relatively sparse vegetation before I even dug into the soil. That tree will probably be removed in the future and because I have thought this for several years it has not gotten any special attention. Southern species of oaks that do not occur in Michigan and have fared well include:
Georgia Oak
Nuttall Oak
Cherrybark Oak
Blackjack Oak
Willow Oak
Overcup Oak
Post Oak
Chestnut Oak
Swamp Chestnut Oak
Also some species native to Michigan or similar latitude that I have from more southern areas that are doing very well.
Shumard Oak
Pin Oak
Black Oak
Shingle Oak
Bur Oak
White Oak
Swamp White Oak

I'm hoping to give a full report next late Spring or early Summer.

How have your swamp chestnut oaks fared so far and how cold has it gotten? Where did they come from?

Doug

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Lucas
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Re: Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern

Post by Lucas » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:48 pm

Doug

Do you have pix of your trees online?

The michauxii are from central OH. I planted 90 2017 and had about 60 come up

I planted about 300 in 2018 and I don't now how many are up but I am guessing over 80%. A sample showed 70 % a month ago.

http://www.davesweather.co.place/alltimerecordsyear.gif

This private weather station gives some idea of the conditions this year. My SCO are 20 miles away at higher elev (400 Ft) so it may have been colder there. There was no snow at the time of the week of the cold snap, I think. The site missed some data for Jan.

I had some losses but not as many as expected. The ones that came up latest like in Sept did worse. They still have a very long way to go, though.
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir

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DougBidlack
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Re: Tree Identification in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern

Post by DougBidlack » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:31 pm

Lucas,
the only pictures I have online are those that I've put on this site in other posts. I'll try and get more pictures for when I post in the future but I always seem to be short on time.

All the records for the weather station you gave were from 2018. Is the station so new or did you just limit the period of record? I suppose 2018 could also have been a really weird year for you but that seems unlikely. Minus 19 C is not that cold. Maybe the lack of heat during the warmer months can be as much or more of a problem for you with southern species as it is quite odd to have acorns come up as late as September. I'm sure all that new growth so late in the year would have been a big problem for them. If you don't get much heat it may be tough on getting the acorns to fully ripen once they start fruiting. I know that other areas with cool summers struggle with flowering and fruiting on plants from areas with hot summers.

Doug

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