Tall trees measured in Spain

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KoutaR
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Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by KoutaR » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:28 am

The European Champion Tree Forum recently had a meeting in Spain. I was not there. During the meeting they measured (with Nikon Forestry lasers) some remarkable trees, e.g. a London plane (Platanus × hispanica) 48.8 m = 160 ft (the new record), and a pecan (Carya illinoiensis) 48 m = 157 ft. If I have got the American figures correctly, the pecan is 5 meters taller than the tallest laser-measured in NA. Is that correct? Is it possible that the pecan max. height is still poorly known by NTS? A German book I have says that pecan could even reach 60 m. The report about the meeting with the measurements can be read here:
http://www.championtrees.eu/reports/ECT ... Report.pdf

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Will Blozan
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by Will Blozan » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:54 am

Kouta,

You are correct that pecan max height is poorly known. A 144' tree in Tennessee is the height record as far as I know. I personally have not been in superlative pecan habitat so I do not know their potential. However, the genus Carya often does very well with many eastern US species reaching 140' or greater. Carya ovalis and cordiformis are likely to reach 170'.

Do you know if the height was obtained with the SINE routine or the built in TAN/HT method?

Thanks for the update!

Will

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KoutaR
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by KoutaR » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:55 am

Will,

I am sure they used the SINE routine. I also know that at least some of the measurers have Nikon Forestry 550 that even has no TAN routine.

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dbhguru
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by dbhguru » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:02 am

Kouta,

I continue to be impressed with what the European continent can grow. But I have big blind spots. I've always been fascinated with Spain, having visited it a couple of times in the past. However, I never associated Spain with tall trees. Very exciting.

Kouta, all of you on the other side of the Atlantic are really amazing. I wish some of your other associates would join NTS so that we can hear directly from them. BTW, does Germany have an equivalent of American Forest's National Register? Australia does have and its creator will visit the U.S. next year. We're going to link up with him and hopefully develop a more formal association between AF and NTS on the one hand and the Australian organization on the other. Might something of that nature be possible with Germany? Ms. Sheri Shannon is the visionary behind the international linkup. Sheri left American Forests to pursue advanced educational opportunities, but she is still very much on board as a presence.

When are you going to visit New England as our special guest? Jake Swamp wants to say hello in person.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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KoutaR
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by KoutaR » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:15 pm

Bob,

I think most of the European tree measurers are aware of the NTS and some occassionally read NTS-discussions.

In Germany there is "Champion Trees in Deutschland" under German Dendrologic Society:
http://www.ddg-web.de/index.php/championtrees.html

Tree listing:
http://www.ddg-web.de/index.php/rekordbaeume.html

But this is apparently more a record of thick than tall trees. I will write to Mr. Mackenthun about your wish to form a formal association.

Thank you for your invitation! Some day I will come and visit all the great places I have read about in the BBS. But my possibilities to travel are limited and I also want to visit some places where nobody has made laser-measurements.

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by DougBidlack » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:37 pm

Kouta,

are the European Champion Tree people and the Monumental Tree people the same? The reason I ask is that I didn't see your tall tree measurements for Common Ash and Norway Spruce on the German Champion Tree site. It seems that girth is a much bigger priority in Germany as well as Ireland and Britain. Is that a fair claim? I see that the trees in Germany are arranged from top to bottom based on girth and the book I have on 'Champion Trees of Britain and Ireland' appears to also lean more towards girth. Perhaps because this is the easier measurement for most people to make?

Doug

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KoutaR
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by KoutaR » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:11 am

Doug,

Some of the ECTF people are also on the MT but I guess most are not. I noticed only yesterday that the "Champion Trees in Deutschland" website is already in so good shape. There was for a long time championtrees.de, quite a simple site, but now it is forwarded to the site I linked to. I guess many find girth more important/interesting because it tells something about the age of the tree. Also easier to measure, indeed. But isn't it so also at the American Forests? The list arranges the trees based on height if you click the height symbol.

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dbhguru
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by dbhguru » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:44 pm

Kouta,

With respect to your question about American Forests emphasis on circumference, yes there has been that. Basically, there is: (1) American Forests as it was prior to May 2013, and (2) American Forests as it now exists. Prior to May 2013, American Forests was basically dependent on the State programs to screen and certify nominations to the National Register. AF was not in a position to judge the adequacy of the individual state programs. The National Register was basically a publication of what AF received from the states. this led to the National Register's inclusion of an ever growing number of mult-stem trees, some obviously more than one tree. However, in 2013, AF moved to change its dependency on the state programs by revising the measuring guidelines and establishing a Cadre of super measurers reporting directly to the AF Big Tree Program Coordinator.

The priorities of American Forests are presently: (1) promulgating a far more stringent set of measuring guidelines leading to greatly improved accuracy of tree measurements, (2) continued research into better measurement techniques, (3) continued search for a better big tree formula, (4) development of a database of species maximums to be used as a coarse filter for eliminating obviously mis-measured trees, (5) building the National Cadre, and (6) resolving the single versus multi-stem issue.

The lead team to accomplish the above is the AF Measuring Guidelines Working Group (AF MGWG), which now consists of Don Bertolette, Will Blozan, Don Bragg, and yours truly. Members of the Cadre will have considerable involvement as well. Tomorrow, we'll have a National Cadre meeting.

We hope that we can interest other countries in this new, exciting model. Sky's the limit.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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DougBidlack
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by DougBidlack » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:07 am

Kouta,

I agree with everything Bob just said so I'll just make some additional comments as to why AF is biased towards girth. As I'm sure you're aware, they use the formula: girth in inches plus height in feet plus one quarter the average crown spread in feet equals number of AF points. This formula ends up favoring girth because trees generally reach their height growth potential long before they reach their girth growth potential. So once a tuliptree in Michigan, for example, hits 140' it will stop growing in height but the girth will continue to grow beyond 140" even in a tree growing in the forest.

I have a more specific question regarding the European Tree Champion folks. What do they consider a European Champion Tree? Is it the tree with the greatest girth, the tree with the greatest height or do they have two champions?

Doug

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KoutaR
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Re: Tall trees measured in Spain

Post by KoutaR » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:38 am

Bob,

It's great that NTS and AF co-operate and that NTS has succeeded to change something in AF.

Doug,

I think "Champion Tree" is for them only such a term like "big tree". Not very exactly defined. Girth likely more important than height. If Jeroen is reading this, perhaps he can answer - he knows those people better than I do. In principle, I am in the Forum but I have not been able to participate in any of their meetings. You find some information here:
http://www.championtrees.eu/
The website is new and probably still under construction.

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