Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Jeroen Philippona
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by Jeroen Philippona » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:17 am

Bob,

I missed your reply till now. Indeed a very big Abies alba! It is the second tall of this species our group laser measured till now.

Tallest 3 we found till now are very close to each other:

1. Bosnia Hercegovina, Perucica Forest, Sutjeska National Park: 54.0 m (177.17 ft); CBH 4.0 m (13.12 ft)

2. Bavaria, Germany, Hanz Wazlik Hain: 53.8 m (176.5 ft); CBH 6.65 m ( 21.8 ft)

3. Montenegro, Biogradska Gora National Park 53.6 m (175.85 ft); CBH 5.04 m (16.54 ft)

In the past there were reported heights up to 68 m (Germany, 19th century), 65 m (Perucica, professor Leibundgut, tangent measurements ± 1960), 62 m (Romania, rather recent, probably tangent method) and 60 m (Biogradska Gora, rather recent, probably tangent). Also a fallen tree in Mionsi Forest, Czech Republic of 60.5 m in 1957.
Reliable was a fallen tree in Switserland of 57.35 m in 1974.

In two weeks I go again to Biogradska Gora and Perucica with a group of arborists and forest researchers, alas not measurers. I will do my best to find a taller Fir!

In the near future Kouta ad I also hope to visit several forests in Romania and Bulgaria.

Jeroen

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dbhguru
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by dbhguru » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:47 am

Jeroen,

Thanks. Europe has so much more of tall tree interest than any of us over here on this side of the Atlantic once thought. I wish you luck on your upcoming trip. How many of you now are there over in the European Native Tree Society that measure tree heights by the best methods? It sounds like there is a growing number.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

Jeroen Philippona
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by Jeroen Philippona » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:27 am

Bob,

There are about 18 persons in our Monumental Tree-group I am aware of measuring with laser and Sine method. Probably all of them measure with the Nikon Forestry 550 or nearly identical instruments. Some of these 18 are not aware of the differences between tangent and sine based measurements. Also I am sure some of them do not know how to work properly with such an instrument, they read our discussions (of Kouta, Karlheinz, myself, Leo Goudzwaard and a few others) on heightmeasuring and bought a Nikon Forestry without really understanding the mathematical basics of Sine measuring. They do not look enough for the tallest top or even do not add the height form their eye to the base. So often they undermeasure the trees. But they are more interested in old solitarian growing trees and do not search for record heights.

Of these 18 about 12 to 14 are really interested in heightmeasuring. Of the 7 Dutchmen of the whole group only 3 are really interested. The others are 1 in France, 1 in Slovakia, 2 in Poland, 3 in Germany, 1 in Belgium and 1 to 3 in the UK (two persons of the British Tree Register do measure sometimes with laser, but not very often).

There are also some climbers interested in heightmeasuring, like Michael Spraggon and some other climbers in the UK as well as in Germany.

Jeroen

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KoutaR
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by KoutaR » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:46 pm

Jeroen,

You missed a few newer additions to our laser-group: "Arlesbaam" from Luxembourg and "Monzon" from Spain. And in Germany there are five measurer, not three: Karlheinz, Rainer, "Tom", "RedwoodMike" and myself. "RedwoodMike" has TruPulse 200. In addition, there are two Nikon-measurers in Finland, although they are not on MT (there are a few new Europe records in Finland; I have not yet reported them).

I believe that majority of the European laser-measurers know how to use their instruments properly.

Kouta

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dbhguru
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by dbhguru » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:43 pm

Kouta, Jeroen,

That is very satisfying the hear. As the number of good measurers grows and the results continue to show progress, I think it will encourage more on this side of the Atlantic to take up the occupation and set the bar ever higher.

I'm hoping that one outcome of the American Forests initiative to improve the quality of the National Register, and tree-measuring in general, will be to call upon NTS to act as a cadre (Don's concept) of super measurers and settle a lot of disputes. However, outside of the faithful few and a couple of new recruits, our measuring mission has slowed considerably.

The work that Matt is doing will go a long way toward maintaing a list of maximums and in time could serve to allow trees to be pre-qualified as candidates for champion tree lists. But, we still have a long way to go. In terms of individual species, we probably can profile a dozen or so to a high degree of accuracy. I'm thinking of white pine and tuliptree as two examples. Are there any European species that you all feel that you have a good handle on range wide in the sense that if you get a report on a tree measured by a source you don't know, you can say that with the region where the tree was measured, the number cited is not credible? Obviously, a number extremely high could be discounted right away, but if the dimension fell within the range-wide maximum, could still be rejected for the region. That kind of capability is what I hope we can eventually develop for dozens of species to aid the champion tree programs.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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KoutaR
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by KoutaR » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:22 am

Bob,

Norway spruce could be such a species. One reason is that, as it is usually relatively straight, tangent measuremens too give some clues. We have laser-measurements from UK (non-native) to Poland and to Montenegro. In addition, I know about tangent-measurements in Estonia, Sweden and Finland, where it is particularly straight. I think there is no other species about which we have that good knowledge. Perhaps the biggest problem is that we have so little data from the east, particularly from the southeast.

Jeroen, what do you think?

Kouta

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dbhguru
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by dbhguru » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:33 pm

Kouta and Jeroen,

Norway spruce could be our first internatioal species to profile. We have lots of data, and endless opportunities to collect more.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

Jeroen Philippona
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:52 am

Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by Jeroen Philippona » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:47 pm

Bob, Kouta,

Indeed Norway Spruce is one of the more measured species, although the number on MT is not high. We still don't have important heightmeasurements from France, only some tangent measurements from Switzerland, Austria, etc.

Also European beech, Pedunculate oak, perhaps Scots Pine, Small leaved - and Broad Leaved Lime could be such species, although there are large areas in their native range were we don't have measurements.

For Pedunculate oak in several countries the heightmaximum seems to be between 40 and 42 m, with till now one tree in Bialowieza of 43.6 m.
That Sessile oak gets taller to at least 48 m on a few locations in France is perhaps because of different growth character of the species or of special qualities of these locations.

For beech 40 to 49 m is the limit in large areas on the best locations. This seems to be a large range, but the real top trees perhaps everywhere are over 43 m. Shelter, soil quality and water seem responsible for optimal height growth.

Jeroen
Last edited by Jeroen Philippona on Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KoutaR
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by KoutaR » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:55 am

Jeroen,

Even at the northern limit of beech in southern Sweden, top trees seem to be near to your 43m: The tallest beech in Sweden (probably tangent-measured) is said to be 41m tall.
http://fof.se/tidning/2007/1/svenska-rekordtrad

Kouta

Jeroen Philippona
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Re: Tree Maximums - Genus of the Week: Abies (fir)

Post by Jeroen Philippona » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:35 pm

The Dendrological Aociety of Danmark gives a record height for beech in Danmark (about as far north as South Sweden) of 44.5 m, measured in 1995, so very probably with tangent method.

Jeroen

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