SINE method training for tree climbers

General discussions of measurement techniques and the results of testing of techniques and equipment.

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eliahd24
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SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by eliahd24 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:19 pm

Hello NTS,
FYI- This weekend I was invited by Patty and Peter Jenkins of Tree Climbers International to lead a short workshop on tree measuring with a class of about a dozen tree climbers. I thought this was BBS worthy since they actually came to me thanks to my own reputation (and the reputation of NTS) in the local "tree community" and the validity of the data I have collected and the work I've done with tall trees and champion trees.

The workshop took place Saturday, June 30th, 2012 at Blackburn Park on the northern edge of Atlanta, GA. Over the course of 2 hours I explained how it got into trees, why I (and we) measure trees, what tools to use, and how/when to measure trees. I got a chance to show off and teach the NTS SINE method. The students provided great feedback and they plan to use the knowledge they gained as a jumping off point for further learning and integrating citizen science (research) into their own tree climbing endeavors. As always, I let them know about NTS and heavily persuaded them to become members and post on the BBS.

Thanks again for accepting me into the NTS community and I hope we can add more to our tribe soon. Let's all keep up the good work. Cheers,
Eli

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Will Blozan
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by Will Blozan » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:14 pm

Eli,

Awesome man! You are a great ambassador for our work. Geez- it must have been HOT down there!

Will

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edfrank
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by edfrank » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:27 pm

Eli,

This is an excellent project on the part of you and Patty. I would really like to see this put up as an example of working together between NTS and tree climbers when get the various Group Pages created for the website - Do you or Patty have photos you could add or additional materials to expand upon the post? Even if you do not, I am pleased to see this happen.

Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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pattyjenkins1
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by pattyjenkins1 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:24 am

Over dinner that night, four of the attendees commented that Eli did a great job, and that though they were challenged by the calculations, they were inspired to study and learn more. THANKS Eli! Now all we have to do is find a time when he can learn to climb!
And yes, Will, it was up to 106 on Saturday. Let's all hope that's not how the summer goes...
Patty Jenkins
Executive Director
Tree Climbers International, Inc.
Get High / Climb Trees

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AndrewJoslin
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by AndrewJoslin » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:36 am

Great stuff! Interesting to note that for tree climbers, knowing how to do a sine/angle measurement can be very helpful even when doing a tape drop. Will reported on this technique in one of his measuring climb reports. For example when the very top limb/branch is too angled and too precarious to climb out on, the climber can do a "sine/top" measurement with the assistance of an extension pole and a clinometer. Once climbers understand the basic measuring technique they'll have that in their mental toolkit to deal with unexpected manual measuring problems when they're up in trees.
-AJ

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dbhguru
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by dbhguru » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:29 pm

Eli,

Splendid job. Professional and amateur tree climbers are naturals for us to join forces with. Tree climbers can relate to trees in special ways that can enhance our collective appreciation for exceptional trees.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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AndrewJoslin
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by AndrewJoslin » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:06 pm

The tree climber bias is to think we have to climb to measure and the only way we can achieve an accurate height measurement is by climbing the tree and doing a tape drop. The beauty of NTS vetted accurate ground-based measuring techniques is that a climber can collect meaningful data on any tree they climb (or don't climb) within minutes of arriving at a tree without including the fairly involved task of doing a tape drop. This means a large increase in data collection vs. how the task is currently perceived by many climbers.
-AJ

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dbhguru
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by dbhguru » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:42 pm

Andrew,

I understand and appreciate what might be a mistrust of conventional ground-based tree measuring methods on the part of tree climbers. For arborists and recreational tree climbers who view the crowns from aloft and appreciate their complexity, it shouldn't be hard to recruit them to our techniques. And the beauty is that the climbers won't have to unlearn what they've had drilled into them for decades as the one and only way to measure trees.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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AndrewJoslin
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by AndrewJoslin » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:43 pm

Good points Bob. I think on the pro climber/arborist side, many think that the tangent method is sufficient when a tape drop isn't performed so there is some gentle re-education required there. From an arborist/tree worker point of view overestimating height is not a bad thing since the primary day-to-day reason for measuring height is to deal with obstacle (houses etc.) clearance issues when taking trees down. The Arnold Arboretum silver maple over measuring was a good example of well-educated tree professionals relying on an imprecise ground-based technique. On the rec climber side there is much less preconditioning to believe an out-dated technique is "state of the art", an easier educational task with with that group.
-AJ

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dbhguru
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Re: SINE method training for tree climbers

Post by dbhguru » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:03 pm

Andrew,

Yes, I can see where you are coming from. It is exciting to think about a strong contingent of recreational climbers coming from many backgrounds, some highly technical. This bodes well for us. Thanks mainly to you, a new powerful arm of NTS membership may be growing.

There's another point to explore here. Recreational climbers may be predisposed to establish records, and authentic ones at that. Main line sports do very precise timings and measurement. The idea of just being in the ball park is anathema to real athletes.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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