Pine silos

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Lucas
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Pine silos

Post by Lucas » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:49 pm

Since white pines grow tallest in the east would they act like a silo affect to increase tree height of other species within them?
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir

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dbhguru
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Re: Pine silos

Post by dbhguru » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:51 pm

Lucas,

The answer is yes for some species. The silo effect appears to be true for red maple, black birch, and stripped maple. I expect that it is true for all those species which are tolerant of a wide variety of soil types and struggle in get to light when in competition with species that grow taller and often have broad crowns. Eastern hemlock may get a boost from association with white pine, but I see them mostly competing with themselves. An interesting exercise would be to profile each species that comes up under a canopy of white pines and observe which ones benefit most.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
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Will Blozan
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Re: Pine silos

Post by Will Blozan » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:12 pm

Lucas,

Not entirely sure what you mean by silo effect, but any tall species will exert an influence on surrounding canopy species and force taller growth. White pine (not the tallest in the east if that's what you meant... tuliptree is) typically grows on sites that it can out compete other typical associates. Well-drained, acidic soils favor the pines and few others that can grow as tall. Eastern hemlock was one exception and some very tall specimens have been found in association with white pine. Others are simply subordinates.

Will

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dbhguru
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Re: Pine silos

Post by dbhguru » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:12 pm

Will,

I interpreted Lucas's silo effect as meaning vertical growing space. It works here in New England for species like stripped maple that benefit from the extra growing room. It appears to work for the other species I listed. But is it an ecological association? No, just growing room. I think.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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Lucas
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Re: Pine silos

Post by Lucas » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:23 pm

dbhguru wrote:Will,

I interpreted Lucas's silo effect as meaning vertical growing space. Bob
Vertical growing space within taller trees to protect them from wind etc. and force vertical growth

Tree tube effect also

https://www.google.ca/search?q=tree+sil ... Pgodu3QBEg
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir

Joe

Re: Pine silos

Post by Joe » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:25 am

Lucas wrote:Since white pines grow tallest in the east would they act like a silo affect to increase tree height of other species within them?
Lucas, I've never heard the term "silo affect". As for increasing the height of trees within them..... hmmmmm....

In forest mgt. (silviculture) we have the term "shelterwood harvest"- where, removing maybe half the overstory- that creates an opportunity for trees to grow within the gaps. This works well with some species in some areas. It works in the sense that you can predict which species will grow within those openings and how dense. It's not about increasing the height within them, but getting them to seed in and grow- the species we want to grow in those openings. The young trees don't grow faster than they might otherwise, but to get them to grow at all is the goal. Rate of height growth is more a function of "site index"- that is, site quality. Height growth is independent of stand density. Diameter growth is all about stand density.

Foresters- those actually doing real forestry and not just chopping timber- think about this all the time- we like to cut timber but we are obligated to influence the next generation of trees.
Joe

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dbhguru
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Re: Pine silos

Post by dbhguru » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:05 am

Joe, Will, Lucas,

I interpreted Lucas's silo effect as giving species vertical growing space. This seems to work best for some understory species like stripped maple. The tallest I have measured grow in the understory beneath white pines. In these stands it isn't about site index. Is there anything beyond vertical growing space to a silo effect? Not that I can think of.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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gnmcmartin
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Re: Pine silos

Post by gnmcmartin » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:27 pm

Folks:

Another, related concept, could be what I have seen called "nurse trees." The idea here is that some species will grow better if grown with another species that can protect the intended species, and create a better environment for it to grow straight and tall, without excessive limbiness.

Here on my 14 acres here in Winchester, I have used this idea to a limited extent. Where I am growing some spruce and pine trees, I have planted black locust trees very near. These provide protection from winds, from bird perch damage, and discourage large lateral branches, all the while enhancing the nitrogen in the soil. I also have some areas growing up in black walnut mixed with black locust. I encourage both, with the idea that the black locust, as with the pines and spruces, and help the black locust grow taller and straighter.

The "silo" effect, while I have never heard the term before, makes sense to me.

--Gaines

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Lucas
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Re: Pine silos

Post by Lucas » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:59 pm

"If you take a really small juniper tree that lives in the desert and you put it in the Northwest, it'll grow to perhaps four times as tall," Kempes says. "But it won't grow to be the height of a redwood. And this is what all of ecology is interested in: How much of your existence is determined by the environment versus your genetics? Now we can concretely say this is the environmental side of things, and now we want to go after the species."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 092950.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 121724.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 191343.htm

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObj ... tation=PDF

Further Height vs environment vs genetics info

To explain further, silo affect is just a term I use to describe gap phototropism. Trees grow tall in response to competition but I don't remember seeing how they respond to higher than average competition.

Trees in tree tubes\silos grow vertically very fast. One wonders how far that can be extrapolated, in general.

Also would a tree from the south with greater than average heights vs the local canopy grow taller under the "silo affect" in the north. Trees in gullys tend to do well out of the wind, etc.

The whole Height vs environment vs genetics thing is fuzzy to me.
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir

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