Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

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mdvaden
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Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by mdvaden » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:42 am

Spend yesterday afternoon writing a page about single and fused trunk trees. It stemmed from redwoods but the photos and content are pertinent for other species too. Pith and center of the trunk are briefly covered too. Since all the photos are at the page, here's the link:

LINK > http://www.mdvaden.com/redwood_trunks.shtml

It may put new brake pads on the opinion factor.
M. D. Vaden of Oregon = http://www.mdvaden.com

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Don
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Re: Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by Don » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:33 am

Mario-
I took the time to copy and past your LINK above into a Word.doc and interspersed comments in the body of your text. It would be inappropriate to take up space here...is there an email address I could mail it to?

As I said in my last sentence there;

"Mario, the examples above and those that follow are VERY helpful, and in concert with those we get from the half dozen or so professional arborists in the AF National Cadre, we are making great progress in coming to grips with what “might” well be going on inside the “gobsmackers”! Please let’s continue this dialogue, as you find trees/images/cross-sections that “speak” to us.
Thanks for your time and energy, your spectacular photography, and for sharing your love of the big trees of the Pacific Northwest!!"
-Don Bertolette
Don Bertolette - President/Moderator, WNTS BBS
Restoration Forester (Retired)
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View my Alaska Big Tree List Webpage at:
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John Harvey
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Re: Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by John Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:29 am

Mario,
At the end of the day I think the sequoia sempervirens will always pose a larger challenge in determining multi vs single for several factors like extensive age of the tree, exposure to more "events" in the trees life and so on.
The examples you have are good ones and a well written article. I started my love affair for trees as a destroyer of thousands of them in many forms from saplings to 300 year old oaks. I've seen a few of these examples up close as I was a trimmer and removed countless trees for the power company through Asplundh in my younger years. Of course most of them went straight through the chipper without being examined. I would still say that few of those example you have there would be mistaken for multi trunked trees (except by a novice or after extensive aging of the tree around the condition). The fluting on the Giant Sequoia you have pictured is very similar, in my mind, to what is seen on Bald Cypress in the east. I'm not sure what type of maple your example is but having extensive experience with Silver, Red and so on, they are known to have misshapen trunks in many instances. The profile on the maple looks very consistent to many of Silver Maples I've seen and Red Maple has countless burls and knots on it. I cant comment on how common sunburn damage is in a coast redwood forest....
As for the misshapen form of a single trunked tree being mistaken for a multitrunk, this happens but Id still say that "lines" are typically a stronger indicator of that because of the "plasticity" of different tree species, such as different maples. Take a tree such as a tulip poplar and its about 99% of the time obvious if it is a multi or not, even with some line in it. Although it may be difficult at times to make an accurate determination on some trees, it usually is not for most species. This is why we have a program to trace pith lines and such.

Point in short? Coast Redwood is always going to be harder to be definitive on. It is just as prone to extra stems and fusions as almost any other tree, except maybe some Banyan species and others. Its just as old as almost anything we have as an example. This presents problems as you have stated in your article. I cant say, and I'm not saying your tree is a fusion. It very well may not be. In fact there may not be a way to determine without damaging the tree so its a mute point in the end... I just tend to question every coast redwood in my mind because of its "reputation" as long as it has a potential indicator.

AF, with the help of NTS is moving toward a single trunk only champion list. Certain tree types may have to be tackled from different angles or given a benefit of the doubt. There is a lot of chatter recently of assigning proper rank and proper measurement for these trees through formulas proposed by Zane and Bob for good reason. Its a tough tree to wrap a tape, a formula, or a mind around at times...
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Red maple
Red Maple
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Silver Maple
Silver Maple
John D Harvey (JohnnyDJersey)

East Coast and West Coast Big Tree Hunter

"If you look closely at a tree you'll notice it's knots and dead branches, just like our bodies. What we learn is that beauty and imperfection go together wonderfully." - Matt Fox

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mdvaden
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Re: Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by mdvaden » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:11 pm

Don wrote:Mario-
I took the time to copy and past your LINK above into a Word.doc and interspersed comments in the body of your text. It would be inappropriate to take up space here...is there an email address I could mail it to?
My website in my signature has one email on the contact page.

Another is mdvaden added to @gmail.com

*****************************

RE the topic ... often I have written to solidify opinions.

In this case, I think it was geared to inspire folks to hold-off in limbo

...
M. D. Vaden of Oregon = http://www.mdvaden.com

200 Pages - Coast Redwoods - http://www.mdvaden.com/grove_of_titans.shtml

Portraits & Weddings - http://www.vadenphotography.com

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mdvaden
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Re: Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by mdvaden » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:17 pm

JohnnyDJersey wrote:Mario,
it usually is not for most species. This is why we have a program to trace pith lines and such.
What I wrote was hoped for to broaden the topic to other subjects too like the pith.

One thing that's certain, is that a pith line has to be seen to trace it. That's more or less if the tree can be cut open.

I' can't say definitively that a program can trace the invisible without invasive means like coring.

If you have a device that can detect the precise location in an ascertained fashion, then that would certainly be a program that can do the job.
M. D. Vaden of Oregon = http://www.mdvaden.com

200 Pages - Coast Redwoods - http://www.mdvaden.com/grove_of_titans.shtml

Portraits & Weddings - http://www.vadenphotography.com

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John Harvey
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Re: Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by John Harvey » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:23 pm

I agree, you cant trace what cant be seen. The two large maples I have photos of above are trees I believe are single stems. I can be certain there is someone who would disagree with me on that. Without seeing them cut in half, its hard to say %100.
John D Harvey (JohnnyDJersey)

East Coast and West Coast Big Tree Hunter

"If you look closely at a tree you'll notice it's knots and dead branches, just like our bodies. What we learn is that beauty and imperfection go together wonderfully." - Matt Fox

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mdvaden
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Re: Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by mdvaden » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:25 pm

Don wrote:Mario-
I took the time to copy and past your LINK above into a Word.doc and interspersed comments in the body of your text. It would be inappropriate to take up space here...is there an email address I could mail it to?
I sampled your notes this morning and some again this afternoon.

RE Dr. Alex Shigo, its possible you may find his writing like the book A Modern Tree Biology fascinating.

Shigo's research, teaching and publications are rich with images of trees and branches cut open. He is sort of considered the father of modern arboriculture.

He was actually a very hands-on hard worker.

One thing you wrote was along the lines of how far to go or how much to include when measuring trees for volume. I'm curious where they stopped on trees like Iluvatar that was in National Geographic. Although there may be a pdf. online from an older study that answers that.

But if I got to make the rule, it would be based on diameter, not whether it was just branch or stem. Because some trees have so much that grows every which way. I'd measure every stem and every branch down to a certain diameter, whether it was 12 inches, 6 inches, etc..
M. D. Vaden of Oregon = http://www.mdvaden.com

200 Pages - Coast Redwoods - http://www.mdvaden.com/grove_of_titans.shtml

Portraits & Weddings - http://www.vadenphotography.com

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mdvaden
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Re: Single Trunk vs. Fused ~~ Fusion vs. Confusion

Post by mdvaden » Mon May 29, 2017 7:55 pm

someone posted a video online today, that reminded me General Sherman is apparently a fused twin giant sequoia. Most people view and photograph it dead on from behind the sign. But from another angle, the inclusion line isn't inconspicuous. The verticle line is relatively straight and runs a considerable distance up the trunk, indicating where the two trunks pressed together. There's even a hint of the figure 8 shape up the trunk typical of that kind of growth. In essence, it's like a larger version of Screaming Titans coast redwood, but in the Sequoiadendron forest.
M. D. Vaden of Oregon = http://www.mdvaden.com

200 Pages - Coast Redwoods - http://www.mdvaden.com/grove_of_titans.shtml

Portraits & Weddings - http://www.vadenphotography.com

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