Max. height for northern whitecedar

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edfrank
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by edfrank » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:15 am

Doug,

There are two measurement options in the Forestry Pro. One option is the three point method which employs the flawed tangent method, and a "height between two points method" http://www.nikon.com/products/sportopti ... /index.htm But it is not perfectly clear how the height measurement is being calculated as the illustration shows the angle to the base, but the same distance to the top and bottom. It is exactly the same illustration used for the two=point method on the Forestry 550 model, so I think it will work the same way. http://www.nikon.com/products/sportopti ... aser/f550/
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:58 am

Doug,

Your plan sounds great. The boreal rainforest of Lake Superior Prov. P. is something I must see sometimes. I guess you will measure a new record Picea glauca there. I haven't yet had a possibility to put the book in practice, but want to do it in the future, maybe already this or next year.
I guess I'm just a bit confused about the 3-point routine of the Forestry Pro 550.
Just as Ed said: Forestry Pro has the both methods, the 3-point routine (which we don't want to use) and the 2-point routine (which we do want to use). I have measured with measurers who have Forestry Pro and I can guarantee its 2-point routine works just like my 550A S.
...that are worthy of more careful...and slower measurements.
But be careful that Ellen doesn't leave the forest before you are ready... ;)

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:21 am

Ed, Kouta,

OK, so the 2-point routine is clearly the way to go but I am still a bit confused. It looks like the 550 will get you the distance to base, distance to top, angle to base, and angle to top. It then calculates the height which I am assuming is via the tangent method. My question is how do you get the actual height? Do you need to use a calculator or is there some way to use the 550 to make the calculation via the sin method?

Kouta,
I also really want to see Little Abitibi Provincial Park for the black spruces and the far northern population of old growth red pines. Maybe I can make this trip during a long weekend this summer but this might just be wishful thinking. A really exciting trip would be to kayak down the Missinabi River from Missanabie to Moosonee but the trip that has been on my mind the longest would be to kayak the Lake Superior shoreline of Pukaskwa National Park and up the several streams and rivers and then hike when you run into the waterfalls. Don't know if this will ever be possible as Ellen is deathly afraid of kayaking on Lake Superior. I managed to get her to kayak along some of Isle Royale on calm days but I couldn't get her to make the three mile paddle to a couple offshore islands with their wonderful lighthouses (one also had lots of yew due to the lack of moose browsing them to the ground). Some of my best memories are from fishing for pike and walleye between Wawa and Chapleau by canoe. We used to make this trip almost every year when I was a kid and I'm looking forward to seeing that area again so I can share the experience of being there with Ellen.

Measurement speed is extremely important when hiking with Ellen. She does not have my patience or the same love for measuring trees although she does very much appreciate big trees and old-growth forests in her own way.

I very much hope that you get to visit some of these places soon too, but if you do go maybe you can let the rest of us know. I know that I would love to visit any of these places with you even though it may be unlikely that I will be able to get time off when you happen to be in the area. But maybe somebody else will.

Doug

P.S. Ellen mentioned that I should give some context regarding her fear of Lake Superior. We went to the UP for our honeymoon and one of the highlights was to be a kayaking trip along Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. It was in early July, one of the very best times in terms of warm and calm weather. It was not warm and it was certainly not calm. We rented a two-person kayak because Ellen had little experience kayaking at that point. It was extremely difficult just to get onto the Lake and once there it was so rough that Ellen was actually getting seasick. I did not think that that was even possible in a kayak. We had to bail after a few hours. The rental guys were funny as they said they took bets on how long it would be 'til they got the call.

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:52 pm

It looks like the 550 will get you the distance to base, distance to top, angle to base, and angle to top.
Doug,

This far right, the rest false. The 550 calculates the height just like you with your 440, Suunto and calculator. It just has all the three in one. You shoot to the top and the 550 measures the angle and the distance simultaneously, and calculates d * sin a, the result being the vertical distance between your eye level and the top (just as you measure with the 440 and Suunto the same things and then make the same calculation). Now, the 550 remembers the result (unfortunately only half a minute or so). Then you shoot to the base and the 550 makes the same measurements and calculations and sums these two vertical distances (above and below your eye level), the grand total being the tree height. There is also a mode that does not remember the first height, so you can shoot multiple shots to the top and choose the best value and then shoot multiple shots to the base and finally sum the two components yourself. Thus, the 550 operates with the sine method and no calculator is needed.

It would be great to meet you in Ontario, indeed. When do you go or during which period are able to go? I will make my summer plans during coming two months or so. I am not yet sure if I am able to go this year, but if I do I will make a 2-3 week trip. I would like to go canoeing/kayaking to Woodland Caribou Prov. Park for one week or so and spend the rest of the time making short trips to more accessible parks, like those you mentioned. We could arrange a visit to one or two parks together if we are able to go at the same time.
the trip that has been on my mind the longest would be to kayak the Lake Superior shoreline of Pukaskwa National Park
I once asked Lee Frelich about canoeing in Ontario and he suggested this, so it would be worth making for sure.
She does not have my patience or the same love for measuring trees
But you are happy that she goes hiking with you at all. I am not so lucky in this sense...
Ellen mentioned that I should give some context regarding her fear of Lake Superior.
I understand it very well. I would also have some fear of Superior. I did very much kayaking in Finland when I was younger but that all was on relatively small lakes. Superior is rather an inland sea, and I have never kayaked on sea.

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:29 pm

Kouta,

wow! I had no idea it was so easy to measure with the 550. I think I know what I'm getting for my birthday...yipee!

I drool whenever I look at a map of Pukaskwa. No roads through the park and three streams completely contained within the boundaries of the park, not to mention two rivers meeting Lake Superior at either end of the park. Pukaskwa is a dream.

Your trip idea to Woodland Caribou Provincial Park sounds wonderful but ofcourse it is too long a period for us since we will be taking a very long vacation in the Fall. We will begin this vacation in early October which is when we will be in Ontario. For a shorter summer trip we could make it around the 4th of July weekend or the Labor Day (2 September) weekend. So that means either driving to Ontario on the 2nd of July and back home on the 7th or driving to Ontario on the 29th of August and driving back on the 3rd of September. Either way we would have 4 days to explore the park or parks of our choice. Both times would be fine for us but blackflies and mosquitoes can be especially fierce in early July in that part of the world. We have two kayaks and I'm sure it would be very easy for you to rent one if we wanted to explore someplace like Little Abitibi Provincial Park...or we could leave the kayaks at home and hike in some of that gorgeous boreal rainforest near Lake Superior...or something completely different. Isn't it wonderful to have so many lovely choices! What strikes your fancy?

Doug

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:01 am

Doug,

Unfortunately your possible days don't work for me. This year I am only able to travel during the period July 5 - August 18. If you went around the 4th of July, I would fly on the 5th, drive to a park on the 6th and you should drive back home on the 7th. Thus, we would have max. half a day. Don't make sense. Maybe in another year? Either in Ontario or elsewhere.

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:56 am

Kouta,

yes, you're right about the 4th of July weekend being to short. Even if we shifted it a day later that would only give us a day and a half. However, we could do it any other weekend except the 17th/18th of August and come up with three full days and part of another. If that is too short just say so.

Doug

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Doug,

If you could take another weekend, it would be great. Three full days is fine. Even in one full day we could do a day hike to a smaller park (one full day is more than we had in Hainich!).

I will contact you when I know more about my summer.

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:18 pm

Kouta,

OK, so why don't you pick the park or parks, the weekend and the total number of days. If three days then I can only go on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, if two days then Friday and Saturday would be best, and if only one day then Friday and Saturday are probably equally good for me. Ellen now feels that she will not go so if you wish to go to a site that requires kayaks I can bring both of ours.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you when you know your plans.

Doug

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:01 am

Doug,

I wrote earlier that Nikon Forestry 550 and Nikon Laser 550A S are almost identical. However, there is one important difference for you: 550A S doesn't have a feet mode, only meters and yards. Thus, you want one of the Forestry models: old Forestry 550 or new Forestry Pro.

I will contact you soon about the summer.

Kouta

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