Max. height for northern whitecedar

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Will Blozan
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by Will Blozan » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:44 pm

Jess,

White spruce also hybridizes with Sitka to make "Lutz" spruce. They likely get quite large.

Will

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:18 pm

Lee kindly replied to my e-mail and said those tall spruces between Prince George and Jasper National Park, BC, are P. glauca x engelmannii hybrids, indeed. A few of them have been climbed and the tallest was 205 ft = 62.5 m tall.

According to Van Pelt's book, the tallest pure P. engelmannii is 223 ft = 67.7 m.

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:10 pm

Kouta, all,

this has been a very helpful discussion for me as I have just started putting together a list of northern species that I may be able to measure at the very beginning of a western trip that my wife and I will be taking late this year. These are trees that I expect to encounter along the eastern and northern shores of Lake Superior.

The updated max height list for these four species:
Larix laricina 91.0' - Jess (NY)
Picea glauca 115.9' - Jess (NY)
Populus tremuloides 97.9' - Jess (NY)
Thuja occidentalis 87.0' - Brian (NC)

Did I miss anything? Carl Harting measured a quaking aspen in Pennsylvania to 97.6' in 2008...so very close to what was found by Jess and Kouta.

Here is a list of other northern species with most of the height info from the East Max List prepared by Jess. I am wondering if anyone has updates for any of these species as well?
Abies balsamea 95.6' - H. Stoner, 2006 (NY)
Acer spicatum 42.8' - J. Riddle, 2006 (MA)
Alnus incana rugosa ? (I'm not aware of any NTS measurements)
Betula papyrifera 110.5' - B. Leverett, 2002 (MA)
Picea mariana 82.1' - D. Luthringer, 2004 (PA)
Pinus banksiana ? (I'm not aware of any NTS measurements)
Pinus resinosa 123.0' - D. Bragg, 2005 (WI)
Populus balsamifera ? (I'm not aware of any NTS measurements)
Sorbus americana 56.1' - J. Riddle, D. Riddle, 2002 (NC)
Sorbus decora ? (I'm not aware of any NTS measurements)

I seem to recall that Bob L. may have measured taller red pines in northern Michigan but I didn't write it down. I'm also planning on measuring other northern trees that are more commonly measured such as white pines and yellow birches, but I thought I'd concentrate on those species that we don't seem to know very well. I'm sure I missed some trees, especially the smaller species...can anyone come up with some northern Ontario trees that we don't know well that are not included in the above lists?

Doug

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tsharp
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by tsharp » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:02 pm

Doug: If you read Jess's maximum dimension list carefully it lists height of 46.1' for A. spicatum.
I have a height of 91.1' for P.basamifera var.balsamifera taken in British Columbia last summer. I have not had time to post results of that trip yet but none of the others species I measured exceeded the numbers you listed.

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Jess Riddle
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by Jess Riddle » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:00 pm

Hi Doug,

I like your approach of focusing on undermeasured species/species with the potential to reach record heights in the region.

Turner is correct, the Acer spicatum height record is 46.1’, a tree Will and I measured in TN in 2007. The only other updates I have are 56.7’ for a Sorbus Americana Michael Davie and I measured last fall in NC, and 43.9’ for an Alnus incana var. rugosa I measured on the shores of Lake Ontario in NY.

Jess

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:05 am

Turner and Jess,

thank you for those great updates. I'm going to assume that showy mountain-ash is going to run about the same height or a little less than American mountain-ash and that any jack pine over 70' is worth measuring.

Funny about the mountain maple, my copy of the list does not show the 46.1' tree. The closest match seems to be 16" x 41.5' from Den Branch on the NC side of the smokies and measured on 2/10/07 by Jess and Will.

Doug

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:03 am

Doug,

The tallest Pinus banksiana I measured in Prince Albert NP was 25 m = 82 ft tall. It is located a few km to the south from the tallest spruce and aspen, also along Grey Owl Trail.

You could add Salix bebbiana to your target list. It attains tree size in good sites. Maybe some other willows, too. And maybe also Prunus virginiana var. virginiana.

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:23 pm

Kouta,

excellent. Your 82' jack pine gives me something to shoot for. I also like your Salix bebbiana addition. I believe Prunus virginiana is more common and likely larger to the south, but it seems that we don't know much about this species so I'll keep it in mind as well.

I have a question regarding your laser rangefinder. Do you use the Nikon Forestry Pro 550 or the European equivalent? As I recall we both came up with nearly the same height for an ash in Germany. I was using a Nikon Prostaff 440 and a Suunto clinometer. The reason I ask is that I am thinking about getting the Nikon Forestry Pro 550 to speed up the process. As you know, I am quite slow and I will need to speed the process up if I want to make alot of measurements when I'm out hiking and backpacking with Ellen. It would be nice to get the upcoming LTI product that has the correct sin algorithm built into it but it seems that the price will likely be too much for me. It looks like I can get the Nikon Forestry Pro 550 for around $400 which should work well as long as I don't follow the instruction manual as Michael has mentioned. What are your thoughts?

Doug

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KoutaR
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by KoutaR » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:33 pm

Doug,

Indeed, Prunus virginiana is usually only a shrub in boreal forest. In good sites it may become a small tree. I haven't seen it in more southern localities (Yellowstone being the southernmost one), so you know much better its dimensions to the south - maybe it is not worth measuring in Canada.

I have Nikon Laser 550A S. It is almost identical with Nikon Forestry 550, the only differences being color (orange vs. yellow) and [I don't know what is this in English, I don't even know what is it in Finnish or German, so I can't check my dictionary - viewfinder?, loupe?, against that you put your eye], that is a bit better on Forestry 550. Forestry Pro is the successor of Forestry 550 and has the 3-point routine (which we don't want to use). Thus, it is actually a matter of price which one of these do you want. Most European laser-measurers have one of these three. It could be a good idea to carry the both 550 and 440. With 550 you search for tall trees and when you find a particularly tall tree that you want to measure more carefully you use the 440 and Suunto.

I have never found the wider beam of the 550 a problem. I know my measurements are not accurate to 10 cm or 20 cm, the clinometer of the 550 likely being the weakest part. Many of my measurements that have been checked with more accurate equipments/methods have been slightly too low. I think I can reach about +/- 1 % accuracy.

Where exactly are you going to hike?

Kouta

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DougBidlack
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Re: Max. height for northern whitecedar

Post by DougBidlack » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:28 pm

Kouta,

I didn't mean to suggest that Prunus virginiana is not worth measuring in Ontario, just that if my time is limited I should concentrate on trees that will be closer to their maximum potential in this region. I just want to try to allocate my time and energy as effectively as possible.

I guess I'm just a bit confused about the 3-point routine of the Forestry Pro 550. For some reason I thought if it were used in a different manner than suggested by the manual that good results could be obtained, but it sounds like that is incorrect. So it sounds like the Forestry 550 is what I should get. I was thinking of using the 550 in exactly the manner that you suggest; to quickly find the tall trees that are worthy of more careful...and slower measurements.

I know that you also have the book, "Ontario's Old-Growth Forests, and the places that I want to visit are all in there. I've never been to the Bruce Peninsula and that is where we will hopefully get to see some of the really old northern white-cedars. Not to measure but just to see such incredibly old trees in such a beautiful setting. I'm hoping that we can hike in both Lion's Head Provincial Nature Reserve and Bruce Peninsula National Park. Then off to Nokomis Trail in Lake Superior Provincial Park and Voyageur Trail which starts in Michipicoten Post Provincial Park and runs well into Lake Superior Provincial Park. Next up is the Back 40 Trail in Rainbow Falls Provincial Park and lastly we will visit Sleeping Giant Provincial Park where we will go around Lake Marie-Louise and do some hiking along the Kabeyun Trail. I would love to do some off trail hiking up some stream/river valleys especially along the Voyageur Trail and possibly also along the Kabeyun Trail, but this will require more time and I'm not yet certain how much time we'll have.

Doug

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