Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

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dbhguru
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by dbhguru » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:58 pm

Brian,

Walker Cove is always a hoot. Good BB data! Thanks. We're up to 572 trees. Here is a summary
BBSummary.png
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Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:53 am

Several years ago, I spent some time in this area measuring but I just checked out several areas. I passed by some very substantial white pine stands and just didn't get off trail very much. Over the past month, I hit a fair amount of the area. There are still a few more significant sections to traverse. The pine stands and some hardwood stands are quite exceptional, especially considering their ages.


South Facing Slope/Cove just above road and Walker Creek.

Lirio tulip 147.6' 143.3' 142.8'
Quercus alba 125.8' 125.6' 123.8'
Quercus rubra 136.4' 132.9' 127.1'
Quercus montana 120.4' 119.5'
Quercus velotina 117.8' 109.3'
Carya ovalis 118.4'
Carya alba 112.1'

Those numbers for a south facing slope/cove are fantastic. I found better in other coves.
147’ south facing tulip
147’ south facing tulip
Southeast facing Cove

Lirio tulip 157.1'
Quercus alba 122.9'
Quercus velotina 120.0'
Carya ovalis 117.8'
Junglans nigra 113.6' 112.6'
Fagus grandifolia 106.7'


Walker Creek Trail

This trail winds through very young forest (<40 years), through older second growth and then terminates in the old growth just below Walker Cove Research Area. I got into all of the coves above the trail.

Lirio tulip 151.8' 150.3' 144.9' 140.7' 140.0'
Carya ovalis 128.0' 123.2' 122.1' 122.1'
Carya cordiformis 124.8' 124.6' 120.3'
Magnolia acuminata 124.9' 120.0'
Prunus serotina 132.9' 119.3' 118.7'
Acer saccharum 127.4' 125.6' 121.0' 118.5'
Acer rubrum 117.7'
Betula lenta 100.4' 99.8'
Betula alleghaniensis 92.0'
Quercus montana 129.1'
Quercus velotina 120.6'
Quercus rubra 122.7'
Tilia heterophylla 122.1' 120.9'
Fraxinus biltmoreana 139.6' 119.8'
Walker falls
Walker falls
Forest Road 163 and 163A coves

Cove 1

Aesculus flava 119.3' 113.3'
Tilia heterophylla 130.3' 123.8' 123.1'
Fraxinus biltmoreana 142.1' 135.3' 135.2' 132.1' 131.2' 126.2'
(Josh Kelly, this is a good outlier for treatment. They all appear to be healthy.)
Lirio tulip 157.3' 156.2' 154.3' 154.3' 153.7' 152.8' 151.4'
Quercus rubra 136.7'
Robinia pseudo 132.7'
Betula lenta 107.1'
Pinus strobus 142.5'
Pinus echinata 121.7'
Carya cordiformis 117.1'
Acer saccharum 120.6' 118.1'
Cove 1
Cove 1
Cove 1
Cove 1
Tall biltmore ash
Tall biltmore ash
Cove 2

Pinus strobus 157.0' 149.7' 148.4' 147.2' 145.3' 144.3' 141.4'
Lirio tulip 147.2' 145.3' 144.3'
Fagus grandifolia 117.9'


Forest Road 163

Pinus strobus 147.8' 147.5' 141.5' 141.2' 140.9' 140.2'
Pinus resinosa 109.5' 101.6'

This was the second spot in Big Ivy where I'd found red pines. I'll get to the first discovery shortly.


Forest Road 163A coves

Lirio tulip 159.2' 148.8' 148.4' 147.0' 144.4' 144.0' 143.4' 142.1'
Carya cordiformis 137.0' 125.3'
Quercus rubra 127.4'
Quercus montana 124.2'
Quercus velotina 123.4'
Prunus serotina 126.7'
Fraxinus biltmoreana 127.8' 124.7'
Acer rubrum 118.7' 116.9'
Acer saccharum 108.7'
Tilia heterophylla 126.3'
Betula lenta 110.5'
Betula alleghaniensis 86.1' 80.5'
163A cove black birch
163A cove black birch
110’ black birch
110’ black birch
Walker Creek grove 1 (by parking lot)

This grove is less than forty years old. Nevertheless, it has 140's. I measured just around the edges. They are so close together that it's tough to get shots from inside the grove. There may well be several more 140's.

Pinus strobus 144.0' 143.0' 140.0'
Platanus occid 130.4' 126.2'
Lirio tulip 147.6' (older than the pine grove)
Picea abies 111.0'
Pine grove ~40 years old by parking lot
Pine grove ~40 years old by parking lot
Walker Creek grove 2

This grove is just over 50 years old. The trees are larger but have slower growth rates height wise.

Pinus strobus 150.0' 143.7' 141.8' 140.8' 140.6'
Pinus echinata 109.3'


Road grove

This is very young but has one standout pine

Pinus strobus 143'
Quercus velotina 120.4'
Quercus alba 122.8'
Quercus montana 119.5'
Platanus occid 124.8'
juglans nigra 109.8' 107.5'


Entrance grove

This one really surprised me. I'd driven past it many times without giving much thought to it. This is the new star of Big Ivy. Not only are the numbers exceptional but the pines are only 50 years old! Red pines were planted as well and hardwoods complement the pines.

Pinus strobus 162.8' 162.7' 162.0' 160.1' 159.6' 155.0' 154.1' 150.5' 149.8' 149.4' 149.4' 149.1' 148.3' 147.4' 146.8'
146.8' 145.0' 144.8' 144.2' 143.7' 140.8' 140.7' 140.6' 140.0'
24 140's!!!
Pinus resinosa 113.2' 107.9' 101.2' 99.4' 98.3' 95.1'
Lirio tulip 149.4' 149.1' 142.1' 140.7'
Quercus coccinea 125.1'
Quercis rubra 132.1'
Fraxinus biltmoreana 124.4'
Tsuga canadensis 116.8'
Fagus grandifolia 113.9'
Platanus occid 119.3'
Tall pines
Tall pines
162.8’ white pine &amp; 158.0’ tulip
162.8’ white pine & 158.0’ tulip
Red pines
Red pines
Route 197

The rain kept me out of exploring a forest road here but I hit a pine grove and a nice splash of tulips along the road.

Lirio tulip 150.6' 150.5' 150.2' 146.9'
Pinus strobus 127.0' 124.3' 122.2'


There's plenty more to explore at Big Ivy, including some of the richest areas. After the main forest road opens, I plan to get into these areas.
Last edited by bbeduhn on Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dbhguru
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by dbhguru » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:56 pm

Brian,

You are a one-person army! We salute you. Who wants to compose a song for Brian - Monty Python style?

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by Erik Danielsen » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:20 pm

The form of that tall Biltmore Ash is beautiful. How are they differentiated from White Ash in the field when they're large and tall like that? All the references I find refer to foliage and seed traits for identification. Or is it the case that in many of these coves all of the ash is Biltmore ash?

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:34 pm

Biltmore ash differs from white ash in its bark features. White ash has consistent diamond patterns. Biltmore ash may have these diamond patterns as well but the bark changes into different patterns. Biltmore often has patches of very whit, glossy bark. It can also have more of an oval pattern. It took a little while to differentiate the two species.

White and biltmore can exist side by side but they are not usually present in the same cove. In the Southern apps, white ash is generally above 4,000’. Ironically, on the Biltmore Rstate grounds, i’ve Come across more white ash than Biltmore ash. These are planted white ash.

To confuse the matter more, when Biltmore ash grows along streams, it’s bark differs considerably, looking more like green ash. The stream bark of Biltmore ash is more alligator like in its pattern. In the Southen Apps, if a streamside ash is present, it will be Biltmore rather than Green. Green likes lower altitudes. I have seen white ash along streams as well but it’s mostly Biltmore in the mountains.

Jess Riddle is very familiar with ash differences. Perhaps he can share his thoughts as well.

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:42 am

I was able to get to a couple of coves along 197. The herb layer is already several inches high. The forest is still a little young but is incredibly rich. Basswoods are very common. Chestnut oaks are plentiful in the richest cove. They're a bit young but already have substantial height. I'd guess the primary cove that I measured is 65-70 years. Unfortunately, the Forest Service has cut a fair amount of Big Ivy. This cove is very accessible so I wound expect it to be cut in the next decade.

Lirio tulip 151.2' 148.6' 147.6' 146.1' 142.6' 141.5'

Tilia heterophylla 126.0' 124.1' 122.3' 121.1'

Quercus montana 127.4' 126.4' 124.3'

Acer saccharum 124.8' older tree

Prunus serotina 116.8'

Magnolia acuminata 116.4'

Fraxinus biltmoreana 121.5'

Along the road at 3800' elevation:

Lirio tulip 150.9'

Has anyone found a 150' tulip at a higher elevation? I've hit 138' at 4000'.

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:20 pm

Route 197 Rich Cove and Waterfall

Route 197 has a few spots with fire'logging roads but no official trails. I reported on some coves along these roads. previously, I had stopped before the end of the lower road since it went through some recent cuts. I had a hunch that some rich coves existed beyond where I had searched. Venturing further, young basswoods grew in clumps. This was a good sign as basswoods indicate rich soils. The canopy was only about 50' high but I kept going . I heard water ahead and indeed, shortly before I reached the creek, the trees got much taller. These trees had partially leaved out despite it being April. The unofficial trail continued past this cove but it was covered over by a tall herb layer.

Tulip dominated but a few relic trees resided alongside. A Biltmore ash and a bitternut hickory stood out. These appeared to be in the 120 year and 160 year range, respectively. There may be more rich coves beyond this one. i won't fight the foliage during the summer but will have this as a priority for next season.

Liriodendron tulipifera

160.3' 155.7' 152.3' 146.6' 145.4' 143.7' 143.0' 142.9

Fraxinus biltmoreana

130.0' 114.1'

Carya cordiformis

128.0'

Carya alba

127.0' 120.2'

Quercus rubra

137.5'

Quercus montana

129.0'

Acer rubrum

129.2' 118.7'

Magnolia acuminata

120.0'

Robinia pseudoacacia

116.1'

Tilia heterophylla

125.3' 122.6'


small cove off road

Lirio tulip

150.5'

The 160' tulip becomes the tallest tulip yet found in Big Ivy. I expect that to change soon, however. The red maple just missed hitting 130'.
Basswood clump
Basswood clump
young forest
young forest
Basswoods
Basswoods
Basswoods
Basswoods
128' 10.5' cbh bitternut
128' 10.5' cbh bitternut
128' 10.5' cbh bitternut
128' 10.5' cbh bitternut
130' Biltmore ash
130' Biltmore ash
Rich grove with tulips
Rich grove with tulips

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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:59 am

Elk Pen Trail

I'd been meaning to get back to this trail for some time but was distracted by the tall pine groves this past winter and put this off until later. My main goal was to remeasure the bitternut/pignut hickory I'd found in 2011. This was one of my earliest measuring trips back then. It appears I got most of the species correct but I had the hickory as a bitternut. It is clearly a pignut, and quite tall for a hickory under 100 years old. I remeasured just the upper half of the trail. A large, old red hickory resides next to the trail at about 11' cbh and 100' tall.

Carya glabra

141.1' 124.3' 115.3'

Acer saccharum

124.8' 118.1'

Quercus rubra

132.4'

Liriodendron tulipifera

148.8' 138.2'

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Larry Tucei
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by Larry Tucei » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:33 am

Brian-

Nice post. 160' Tulip niiiice! NC always produces such tall trees.

Larry

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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:49 pm

Big Ivy is comprised of five main watersheds, Ivy Creek, North Fork Ivy Creek, Corner Rock Creek, Carters Creek, and Stony Creek. I haven't done any extensive measuring in the Carters Creek watershed yet. It is more difficult to get in and has the roughest terrain. Josh Kelly has suggested not to do that one alone. I have current Ruckers for the other watersheds. There is much more ground to cover is Walker Creek, North Fork Ivy, Mineral Creek and Carters Creek, which has the most old growth and likely the best second growth as well.

Mineral Creek R10 = 136.93'

1. tuliptree 159.2'
2. white pine 157.0'
3. Biltmore ash 142.1'
4. bitternut hickory 137.0'
5. red oak 136.7'
6. black locust 132.7'
7. white basswood 130.3'
8. cherry 126.7'
9. chestnut oak 124.2'
10. black oak 123.4'

11. shortleaf pine 121.7'
12. sugar maple 120.6'
13. yellow buckeye 119.3'
14. red maple 118.7'
15. beech 117.9'

North Fork Ivy R10 = 132.10'

1. tuliptree 160.3'
2. red oak 137.5'
3. Biltmore ash 130.0'
4. red maple 129.2'
5. chestnut oak 129.0'
6. bitternut hickory 128.0'
7. white pine 127.0'
7. white oak 127.0'
7. mockernut hickory 127.0'
10. white basswood 126.0'

11. sugar maple 124.8'
12. cucumbertree 120.0'
13. cherry 116.8'
14. black locust 116.1'

Corner Rock Creek R10 = 133.04'

1. white pine 162.8'
2. tuliptree 157.1'
3. pignut hickory 141.1'
4. red oak 132.4'
5. scarlet oak 125.1'
6. sugar maple 124.8'
7. Biltmore ash 124.4'
8. white oak 122.8'
9. black oak 120.4'
10. chestnut oak 119.5'

11. sycamore 119.3'
12. hemlock 116.8'
13. beech 113.9'
14. red pine 113.2'
15. Norway spruce 111.0'

Walker Creek R10 = 137.08'

1. tuliptree 157.1'
2. white pine 150.5'
3. Biltmore ash 139.6'
4. red oak 136.4'
5. white ash 133.6'
6. cherry 132.9'
7. sugar maple 131.9'
8. sycamore 130.4'
9. white basswood 129.3'
10. chestnut oak 129.1'

11. pignut hickory 128.2'
12. red hickory 128.0'
13. hemlock 127.7'
14. red maple 126.3'
15. white oak 125.8'

Carters Creek

1. hemlock 147.4'

Big Ivy R10 = 142.74'

1. white pine 162.8'
2. tuliptree 160.3'
3. hemlock 147.4'
4. Biltmore ash 142.1'
5. pignut hickory 141.1'
6. red oak 137.5'
7. bitternut hickory 137.0'
8. white ash 133.6'
9. cherry 132.9'
10. black locust 132.7'

11. sugar maple 131.9'
12. sycamore 130.4'
13. white basswood 130.3'
14. red maple 129.2'
15. chestnut oak 129.1'
16. red hickory 128.0'
17. mockernut hickory 127.0'
17. white oak 127.0'
19. scarlet oak 125.1'
20. black oak 123.4'


In drawing some conclusions about tree heights in Big Ivy, Biltmore ash stands out as the most oustanding at 142.1', along with sourwood, at 103'. Oaks are generally underperforming in height, but the scarlet at 125.1' is exceptional. All of the significant white pines have been intentionally planted, but they are doing well wherever they have been planted. The red pines are doing well among the white pines. Red pines have been planted at five known sites, the Biltmore Estate, the WNC Arboretum, two places in Big Ivy and at Black Balsam, at very high elevation. They are reproducing at Black Balsam at just under 6,000'.
Last edited by bbeduhn on Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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