Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:18 pm

I got back to my rich waterfall cove and made a few more discoveries. The quality forest covers a bit more ground than I anticipated. My clinometer lost fluid and is very difficult to use so I just made a handful of measurements. I did a little treecon on the next couple of slope/coves. They are filled primarily with tulips. The waterfall cove has a pretty solid mix but tulip is still the dominant species. The sugar maple is an absolute rocket. It is fairly young and apically dominant. It beats all of the old growth sugars in Walker Cove in terms of height.

New numbers from the cove

Lirio tulip 155.9' 155.8' 150.6' 150.2'
Aeschulus flava 127.1'
Acer sacch 135.0' 120.2'
Quercus rubra 137.1' ~140'
Frax Bilt 130.6' 127.4'
Tilia hetero 132.1'

Current Rucker for the cove (just about 3 acres covered so far)

Lirio tulip 160.3'
Quercus rubra 140'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Tilia hetero 132.1'
Frax Bilt 130.6'
Acer rubrum 129.2'
Quercus mont 129.0'
Carya cord 128.0'
Aesch flava 127.1'
Carya alba 127.0'

R10 = 133.83'

I checked out another trail that I'd expected to be rather pointless in regards to tree height due to its higher elevation. I was pleasantly surprised. The trail starts at about 4100' and climbs gently to about 4300'. I encountered just a handful of Biltmore ash but found the new Big Ivy and Buncombe County height champ. The heights are impressive on ash and tulip for 4100' elevation.

Lirio tulip 148.9' 145.5' 144.8'
Frax Bilt 145.5'
Acer rubrum 121.6'
Quercus rubra 121.7'

North Fork Ivy Rucker = 137.33'

Lirio tulip 160.3'
Frax Bilt 145.5'
Quer rubra 140.1'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Tilia hetero 132.1'
Acer rubrum 129.2'
Quer mont 129.0'
Carya cord 128.0'
Aesch flava 127.1'
3 way tie 127.0'

Big Ivy Rucker = 143.80'

Pinus strobus 162.8'
Lirio tulip 160.3'
Tsuga canad 147.4'
Frax Bilt 145.5'
Carya glabra 141.1'
Quer rubra 140.1'
Carya cord 137.0'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Frax Amer 133.6'
Prunus sero 132.9'

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:24 am

Will Blozan and I did some searching in the coves around the waterfall cove. Species distribution was similar to the waterfall cove. Sugars are the most impressive overall along with Biltmore ash and red oak. A fair number of old growth relic trees dot the coves, primarily bitternut hickory, sugar maple and black birch. Bitternut remained short for a rich cove. An old growth specimen reached 128' but the younger ones had crowns that curved sideways under tulip crowns.
The tallest tulip is a majestic one in the middle of a cove, likely 90-100 years old. The next two are young rockets in the 50-70 year range.

new numbers

Frax bilt 132.7'
Magnol acum 135.4'
Tilia hetero 135.2'
Quercus rubra 141.5' 140.0' 136.9'
Quercus mont 120.5'
Lirio tulip 158.4' 157.7' 155.3' 151.8'
Betula lenta 108.5'


Overall, for the coves R10 = 135.34'

Lirio tulip 160.3'
Quercus rubra 141.5'
Magnol acum 135.4'
Tilia hetero 135.2'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Fraxi bilt 132.7'
Acer rubrum 129.2'
Quercus mont 129.0'
Carya cordi 128.0'
Aesch flava 127.1'

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:47 am

We visited the excellent white pine site off Corner Rock Creek to show Will the stand and get some updated heights.
I may have under measured one tree last year as it has shown tremendous growth. Two sycamore pencils are approaching 130'. They are young and vigorous, trying to compete with tulips and white pines. The white pines grow in close proximity at the bottom of a tiny cove, not far from a stream. Last year's numbers are in parentheses.

Pinus strobus

166.4' (162.7') 164.3'(162.8) 162.2' (160'+)

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ElijahW
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by ElijahW » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:52 pm

Brian,

Very impressive.

I have a couple of things I'm curious about:

1. I know you, Will Blozan, Jess Riddle, and others have gone into great detail on the differences between White and Biltmore Ash. When you walk through the woods, knowing both species may be present, how much difficulty do you have properly identifying each tree? Does it take just a glance from a distance or do you have to get up close? Because I've seen just a couple of planted Biltmore Ash, my difficulty factor would be high. I'm assuming you guys are much more proficient.

2. Do you ever run into Tilia americana down there? T. heterophylla is supposedly native (but rare) in my general area of NY State, but I've never encountered it, and was wondering if the situation with T. americana is similar where you are; T. heterophylla grows very well here, at least as a planted specimen, by the way.

Thanks for sharing,

Elijah

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tsharp
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by tsharp » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:00 pm

Elijah: Biltmore Ash seemingly has lost its specie status and its varietal status according to Pnts database. Tilia heterophylla has maintained it status as a variety of T. Americana.

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:24 pm

Elijah,
Biltmore ash isn't recognized as a species by any group that I know of outside of the Native Tree Society. It generally has very distinct bark difference from white ash. In coves, the difference is not as great. Biltmore can have the diamond pattern of white ash but has varying patterns strewn in periodically as you look up the trunk. These patterns can include very rectangular segments which can look a bit alligator like. They can also be nearly reflective and very white in color. Typically, a diamond pattern will morph into a rectangular pattern and back and forth this will happen as you look up the trunk. In South Carolina, The rectangular pattern exists but but sometimes oval shapes will appear as well. Check out the Biltmore ash bark that I thought was persimmon.
http://ents-bbs.org/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=4914

On a different note, Biltmore ash is variable in a different way along stream and stream flats. Check out some examples from Big Creek. The tallest white ash is included as well.
http://ents-bbs.org/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7611

The patterns can be even more extreme right along stream banks. They can look very green ashy. Green ash don't grow in the mountains where I live but I've been in several discussions about Biltmore vs. green ash. Green has smaller twigs than Biltmore or white ash and is only found in low lying areas or along streams. I don't believe I've even seen a green ash yet. In Nashville, TN, the ash are Biltmore. In Greensboro, NC, the ash are all Biltmore. In the Southern Appalachians, white ash seems to grow only at higher elevation, above 3,000'. Ironically, the Biltmore Estate has many more white ash than Biltmore ash, but they were planted.

I have yet to see white ash and Biltmore ash growing side by side but I did hear of an instance where they did. In Big Ivy, I've seen white ash in Walker Cove, which is thoroughly dominated by old growth sugar maples. But there is no magical elevation where Biltmore gives way to white ash. The 145' Biltmore ash I just found was at 4100' elevation.

Tilia Americana is not native to the Southern Appalachians. It does make it into Kentucky and grows quite large there.
I've seen a few planted specimens but in the mountains it's all white basswood (or mountain basswood).

I'll get some pictures of the streamside Biltmore ash bark variety and compare them to the mountain bark variety and to white ash, but it may be a while before I get around to it.
Brian

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