LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

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M.W.Taylor
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LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by M.W.Taylor » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:33 pm

Attached are the height banded images for Zoar Valley. 125' is red and 150' is white. The 230'+ cluster hit and the 170'+ clusters are trees that lean over a scarp. In this situation the LiDAR software over-estimated the height due to considering the bottom of the cliff to be the base of the tree. The 165' hit and the others appear to be on level ground and should be accurate.
Attachments
tall tree on level ground
tall tree on level ground
tall top level ground
tall top level ground
tall top level ground
tall top level ground
inflated cliff hanger
inflated cliff hanger
cliff hanger
cliff hanger
scarp leaners
scarp leaners
tall tree level ground
tall tree level ground

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by Erik Danielsen » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:48 am

Thanks Michael,

I believe I know those 230'+ cliff hangers! There's a nice band of white pines that lean out over that edge, young and not very tall.

The hits that look good to you are very intriguing, the tallest being on a well known terrace but hidden in a corner, the others on a section that's been hard to access but always looks intriguing. This is very helpful. It's actually an opportune day to go check out that tallest hit. I'll report back on what I find.
Last edited by Erik Danielsen on Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by Erik Danielsen » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:56 pm

In pursuit of the 164.7' hit, I approached from the upper plateau. At a point on the rim above the indicated location, I looked down to see a snapped-off white pine rising from a point on the slope below. I roughed it out to about 90' still standing, with a healthy secondary crown developing, but the girth at the point of breakage suggested a previously much taller tree. Filing this away as a candidate for the LiDAR hit, I continued.

Finding a safe descent point to the terrace below, after checking in on the big cottonwood I approached the indicated point again. There was nothing tall on the flat in that direction, so I began ascending the slope. I found myself beneath the broken white pine. A cluster of two tall tuliptrees as well as a couple sycamores (I was surprised by how many sycamores there turned out to be on the upper slope) drew my interest. Neither tulip turned out to exceed 140, and the sycamores topped out in the 130s.

I suspect the broken white pine to have been the source of the LiDAR hit. It resembles the 135' pine in many respects and I wouldn't think it unrealistic for it to have exceeded 150 and maybe 160 feet in height.

Some of the other hits you've singled out, based on their locations, are also likely to be tall white pines. I'll look forward to trying to get to those.

Afterwards I did follow the canyon further south than I've gone previously, with some exciting results. I'll post those and some measurements from other visits I've been meaning to post soon, in the main zoar valley update thread.

Thanks again.

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M.W.Taylor
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by M.W.Taylor » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:42 am

I took a closer look at the 165 hit and it's a major hillside leaner. Will post images tomorrow. Now loading the canyon to the south (if it's on the NOAA LIDAR map)

Michael T.

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by Erik Danielsen » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:25 am

Interesting. I still wonder if it could have been that broken pine. There was also a basswood further down the slope, a good big tree, leaning out at nearly a 45 degree angle with a large crown that looked like the perfect setup for an exaggerated hit.

While 150-160+ hits are the most exciting, of course, to see the height banding overall would be very informative. There are terraces with no significant tulip or sycamore component, so 130s and 140s on those are also worth investigating. The same goes for the uplands. A 140+ white ash is a goal right now. I'll be reporting on a couple terraces that have hardwoods nearly scraping at 140' shortly, which had no tulip or sycamore to speak of.

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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by M.W.Taylor » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:38 pm

Attached is the LiDAR for what I believe is a 150' class tree in Zoar Valley MUA. I plucked the tree out of the point cloud to inspect further. It is growing on a bench with a gentle slope just above the river. See attached images. This tree should be around 150' or possibly even taller since this LiDAR is from 2008. All the other tall LIDAR hits over 150 were trees growing over cliffs etc. and trees on very steep hills. Also attached is a side view of the 165' hit which shows how the lean inflated the software estimate. By manually inspecting these tallest hits you can obtain a better height estimate by manually measuring the vertical axis using MeshLab.

I also measure the LiDAR for the forest further to the east of the attached LIDAR map and found nothing over 140'.

Do you guys recognize this tree ? Has it been measured yet ? If not, I will get the GPS for that 150' hit for you and post it.

Michael Taylor
Attachments
side view of point cloud for 165' LiDAR showing it to be a major leaner. Vertical axis drops down to hillside below, thus inflates estimate. This can be overcome by measuring the vertical component to the trunk higher up.
side view of point cloud for 165' LiDAR showing it to be a major leaner. Vertical axis drops down to hillside below, thus inflates estimate. This can be overcome by measuring the vertical component to the trunk higher up.
165 leaner under 100'.jpg (11.6 KiB) Viewed 410 times
height banding map showing position of 150' candidate
height banding map showing position of 150' candidate
LiDAR coverage area for Zoar Valley - Missing that nice tall forest to the SE.
LiDAR coverage area for Zoar Valley - Missing that nice tall forest to the SE.
side view of point cloud in MeshLab and ruler tool to measure vertical axis component, even despite the lean.
side view of point cloud in MeshLab and ruler tool to measure vertical axis component, even despite the lean.

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ElijahW
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by ElijahW » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:21 pm

Michael,

This 150’ target may be a Tulip Erik found last year, but I’m not sure. GPS coordinates would definitely help. If the target is upstream from the Forty Rd. parking area, it may be on private land, but might still be reachable by boat.

The section of the MUA which is unavailable is generally known to have taller and older trees, but then again, Erik just found the 160 Tulip outside of that area. This really is an amazing tool.

Thanks,

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by Erik Danielsen » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:42 pm

That 150' target is on end of the terrace where we found the green ash and black ash, Elijah. I don't think we measured it.

All the sections I had previously known as tallest/oldest are within the coverage area. The 161' Tulip is actually within the covered area, at 42:25:57.4905 N, 78:53:48.9197 W. Just inside the orange-shaded area. I wonder if it shows up.

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M.W.Taylor
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by M.W.Taylor » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:08 am

Erik Danielsen wrote:That 150' target is on end of the terrace where we found the green ash and black ash, Elijah. I don't think we measured it.

All the sections I had previously known as tallest/oldest are within the coverage area. The 161' Tulip is actually within the covered area, at 42:25:57.4905 N, 78:53:48.9197 W. Just inside the orange-shaded area. I wonder if it shows up.

I don't recall processing to the edge of the orange boundary. I focused on those terraces above the river. The 160 footer should show up though.

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ElijahW
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Re: LiDAR for Zoar Valley MUA

Post by ElijahW » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:52 am

Thanks, Erik. I must have been looking at the map wrong. This may be a new tree, then.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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