Irondequoit Bay Parks

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by Erik Danielsen » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:37 pm

Fantastic! You are on a serious roll with red hickory in the central state. The growth rate on many of these hickories seems to make them some of the most exciting trees to remeasure year after year. I've only encountered one in Zoar Valley so far but maybe next month we'll manage to turn up a tall one. A tree for the rucker 20 would be great.

Looking forward to hearing about those birches!

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ElijahW
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by ElijahW » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:28 pm

NTS,

I have a few quick updates on two of the Irondequoit Bay parks.

In Lucien Morin, today's measurement of the tallest Tulip put it at 155.9', an increase of 3' since first measured in May 2016. I was also able to locate a nearby Black Walnut that measured 126.0' x 5'11", just eclipsing a pair of Zoar Valley walnuts as NY's tallest.

In Irondequoit Bay Park West, a White Pine previously mis-measured at 130.0' came out to an even 139' x 7'10". The Black Cherry measured last year at 129.0' x 7'8" has grown to 130.0' x 7'10". A Red Maple new to the list came in at 120.3' x 8'3". I also came across a couple of downed Black Oaks and was able to get rough ring counts to verify their ages. The smaller oak, 19-20" inches in diameter at about 27' from its base, had 190 rings on my first count and an even 200 on the second. I think both counts were conservative and that the tree is somewhere in the neighborhood of 230 years old. The second, larger oak had much wider rings on average, but also came out to approximately 225 years old. My guess is that many of the surrounding White, Black, and Red Oaks are of similar age. Some photos below:
Smaller of the Black Oaks - ~200 growth rings ~27' above the base
Smaller of the Black Oaks - ~200 growth rings ~27' above the base
Bark texture of same Black Oak
Bark texture of same Black Oak
130' Black Cherry; I'm standing about halfway between camera and tree
130' Black Cherry; I'm standing about halfway between camera and tree
Current Rucker Index for Irondequoit Bay Parks:

Tuliptree 155.9'
Eastern White Pine 139.0'
White Ash 137.7'
Red Hickory 136.6'
Eastern Cottonwood 132.3'
Northern Red Oak 131.9'
Bitternut Hickory 131.5'
Black Cherry 130.0'
Black Walnut 126.0'
Eastern Hemlock 125.1'

Average Top Ten Species: 134.6'

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by Erik Danielsen » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:24 am

Very nice increases. Is that increase on the tulip since last year strictly on the basis of new growth? Very impressive.

Looks like this is a good year for 130+ black cherries. The form of that tree is very similar to the 130s at chautauqua gorge and the 129+ at long point- a split leader between 30-50 feet up. Perhaps the competition between leaders in the crown produces that extra height boost. This also seems to be the case with a few of our tallest tulips.

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ElijahW
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by ElijahW » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:10 pm

Erik,

Yes, all height measurements on the Tulip have been of the same leader. It’s easier to hit when the leaves are still on, but nearly impossible with any sort of wind. I tried a few weeks ago and couldn’t do it.

The Cherry isn’t much to look at in terms of symmetry, but I guess it’s beautiful in its own way. You may notice that it’s in a line of cherries coming down the slope. This part of the park seems to have seen some disturbance, and I doubt these trees are much more than 100 years old, if that.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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ElijahW
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by ElijahW » Mon May 14, 2018 6:47 pm

NTS,

If you thought I was done with Irondeqouit Bay, you were mistaken. I decided to include in this thread two final Monroe County parks just upstream on Irondeqouit Creek, Ellison and Tryon. Technically, both parks are outside of the bay proper, but the topography and species mix are identical to the three parks already discussed. Surveys of both parks were completed in the last month. We’ll start with Tryon.

Tryon Park

82 acres

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/parks-tryon.php

Tryon doesn’t look like much until you descend midway down the hill and get into the Tulips. The only negative aspect of Tryon, besides it being used as an informal paintball course, is that it isn’t larger. Aside from the main hillside Oak-Tuliptree forest, Tryon features just a couple of tree-filled ravines, a wonderful cove-like second growth Red and Sugar Maple stand, and a very young floodplain forest.

The oldest trees, as with the other Irondeqouit Bay sites, seem to be the oaks. Though not verified via ring counts, several Black and White Oaks show upper crown and bark characteristics that indicate ages approaching 200 years. The oldest-looking Tulips and Maples I would estimate are younger.

*NY Height Maximum

Trees Measured

Tuliptree

145.2’ x 10.89’
140.7’

Bitternut Hickory

140.1’ x 6.54’

Black Cherry

129.5’ x 7.91

White Oak

125.8’ x 7.04’*

Northern Red Oak

124.2’ x 8.19’

Sugar Maple

122.8’ x 9.3’

White Ash

122.4’ x 7.78’

Red Hickory

120.9’ x 5.93’

Red Maple

119.2’ x 12.03’

Black Oak

118.6’ x 8.65’
115.6’ x 9.15’

Shagbark Hickory

116.6’ x 5.34’

Eastern Cottonwood

116.7’ x 5.8’

Eastern Hemlock

114.8’

American Sycamore

110.0’ x 6.25’

Average Top 10 Species: 126.8’
Irondeqouit Creek marsh
Irondeqouit Creek marsh
Pair of mute swans
Pair of mute swans
Paintball marks on the tallest Red Oak
Paintball marks on the tallest Red Oak
12’ Red Maple
12’ Red Maple
Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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ElijahW
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by ElijahW » Mon May 14, 2018 7:50 pm

NTS,

Ellison Park

447 Acres

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/parks-ellison.php

Ellison turned out to be the big kahuna of the Irondeqouit Bay parks, containing both the single tallest tree and the highest Rucker Index. I actually surveyed a portion of Ellison a couple of years ago, and aside from a handful of trees, left unimpressed. I didn’t realize what I had missed until recently.

Ellison has a very attractive green area, with plenty of playing fields, picnic tables, and creek side fishing access. Planted specimen trees along the roads and walking paths include lots of London Plane Trees, young Sweetgum, Sycamore Maple, and various Willows and Elms. I ran into lots of people every visit, and it seems to be a popular place to recreate.

The forested section with the tallest trees is located in a series of intersecting ravines in the southwest corner of the park. I had come expecting to hopefully find some noteworthy tulips or perhaps some hickories, but instead ran into a small group of magic pines. The tulips and hickories were there, too, but pines stole the show.

As for age, none of the forest surveyed appeared to be old growth. My estimate is that the oldest trees are less than 150 years old.

*NY Height Maximum

Trees Measured:

Eastern White Pine

160.1’ x 9.97’
148.5’ x 7.32’
148.3’ x 10.29’

Tuliptree

148.7’ x 9.42’
145.2’

Shagbark Hickory

137.5’*

Bitternut Hickory

130.3’
126.2’
123.9’

Eastern Cottonwood

128.5’

White Ash

128.4’
127.4’

American Basswood

126.8’

Black Cherry

124.4’

Northern Red Oak

121.0’

Black Oak

120.5’ x 7.33’

American Beech

118.4’
114.3’

Red Hickory

117.8’
114.7’

White Oak

111.3’

Butternut

110.8’

Sassafras

108.8’

Pitch Pine (only one seen; appears to be naturally occurring)

55.7’ x 3.36’

One note: many CBH figures are missing due to the steep terrain and close proximity to private property.

Average Top 10 Species: 132.6’
Lone Pitch Pine
Lone Pitch Pine
108’ Sassafras (center)
108’ Sassafras (center)
Tuliptree Grove
Tuliptree Grove
Three tallest pines
Three tallest pines
Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by Erik Danielsen » Tue May 15, 2018 9:42 am

What a place. The numbers you're getting out of the bay are near zoar-valley class. What will another 50 years do? Now that the 160s are finally on the books for three sites in NY, the big question is whether, where and when a tree might hit 170. I'd bet this white pine has a good shot, based on the growth rates the site suggests. The tallest tulip in Zoar is another good candidate, being sheltered and also youthful. The pines up north are a little taller than either, but may not be growing as swiftly.

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dbhguru
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by dbhguru » Wed May 16, 2018 4:10 pm

Elijah,

You da man! Well, then Erik is too. Well, then Jared is too. We have a heck of a team, two NY residents and two honorary New Yorkers.

Ooops, Yankees vs Redsocks. War, its war. all out war.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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ElijahW
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by ElijahW » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:24 am

NTS,

Some updated measurements from the Irondequoit Bay Parks:

Rucker 10 Height Index as of 12/31/18: 139.8'

Lucien Morin

1. Tallest Tulip now stands at 156.8', an increase of 10" over last fall's measurement. The same top remains intact.

2. Tallest Northern Red Oak is now 132.2'.

3. Tallest White Ash (137'+) looks to be in decline, but has not been carefully measured recently. It may have lost a couple feet in height.
Lucien Morin Tulips
Lucien Morin Tulips
Ellison

Lots of exciting news here:

1. Tallest White Pine is officially 160.3' x 10.03'. I placed a small pin at breast height for future growth monitoring. Its tall neighboring pines were re-measured after leaf-off to 150.2' x 7.32' and 149.6' x 10.29', respectively.

2. Tallest Shagbark Hickory came in at an even 140.0' following its leaf-off measurement and determining of precise mid-slope location. Its CBH was not measured due to the presence of a long-dead and broken off second stem. The bad news with this tree is that I determined it is located just over the park boundary; the good news is that its height can be monitored without trespassing in the future.

Additional New Trees Measured in Ellison Park

*NY maximum known height

Tuliptree

151.0' (found to be on private land; not sure if this tree can be measured without trespassing yet)

Red Maple

132.6' x 9.55'*

White Ash

132.6' x 4.98'

Red Hickory

122.3'

American Beech

121.8'

American Sycamore

119.9' x 7.15'

White Oak

118.0'

Sweet Cherry Prunus avium

113.8'*

Black Birch

103.0'

Sweetbay Magnolia (planted)

17.4' x 0.67'*

Current Rucker 10 Height Index: 134.8'

White Pine: 160.3
Tuliptree: 151.0
Shagbark Hickory: 140.0
Red Maple: 132.6
White Ash: 132.6
Bitternut Hickory: 130.3
Cottonwood: 128.5
Basswood: 126.8
Black Cherry: 124.4
Red Hickory: 122.3
Split-trunked Red Maple.  Not Beautiful, but tall.
Split-trunked Red Maple. Not Beautiful, but tall.
Base of the 132' Red Maple
Base of the 132' Red Maple
140' Shagbark Hickory (center, background)
140' Shagbark Hickory (center, background)
Given the relative youthfulness of the forest and the general terrain of Ellison Park, the Rucker Index will continue to climb. Hopefully, good times are ahead!

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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dbhguru
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Re: Irondequoit Bay Parks

Post by dbhguru » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:28 pm

Elijah,

Holy jumping jehoshaphat!! I'm sooooooo jealous. That region keeps surprising us. What percentage ion the human race even suspects that such tall trees grow in that region. Who's feeding them miracle grow?

Great report!!! I think want to produce a report in 2019 featuring NTS discoveries and tree confirmations and the send it to research organizations like Woods Hole Research Center. They would love to know about these places for the carbon potential.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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