American Hornbeam

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morgan
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by morgan » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:11 pm

The girl in the pic is around 5 feet tall. Here I am and I'm 6 foot 3. You be the judge. Looks like around 4 and 3/4 feet to me.
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edfrank
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by edfrank » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:39 pm

Morgan,

The height doesn't matter really. It should always be measured below the point of major branching.

Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

morgan
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by morgan » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:28 pm

Ok but there's a multi stem problem at the lower location. Another hornbeam is growing behind it and fused with the big tree (not another stem, it's a different tree). I wonder if there is room to slip the tape measure between the two trees, or around the other tree below the fused area. Surprisingly, that little fused hornbeam is almost as tall as the big one. Check it out, the little tree is near the girl's head here.

Anyway, you can see the girth is greater at the lower location. When I was a kid these were two separate trees but over the past 40 years they have fused.
.
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edfrank
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by edfrank » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:48 pm

Morgan,

If you can't separate the two trees at the lower point, then perhaps the spot where you measured is the best bet. You do what you need to do to get the best girth possible. I don't know what else to tell you.

Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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Don
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by Don » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:06 am

While not everybody is going to have all combinations of tree diameter measuring devices, one tool that would rather closely approximate the diameter...a tree caliper.
By taking four or five measurements from one side of the blocking fusing sapling, around the main stem to the other side of the sapling, an average is likely to be the most accurate estimate obtainable.
Don Bertolette - President/Moderator, WNTS BBS
Restoration Forester (Retired)
Science Center
Grand Canyon National Park

BJCP Apprentice Beer Judge

View my Alaska Big Tree List Webpage at:
http://www.akbigtreelist.org

morgan
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by morgan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:14 am

Just an old photo from around 1980. The Milton hornbeam is easily seen in the back yard. To the left of the hornbeam is an old 120 foot spruce which has since died and been removed. On the far left was a white ash which was also near-champion size, but died of old age and is gone. This plantation was settled in 1742 and the house was built then and reached its current size around 1825, most of the trees date from then which is why so many are in decline or gone. The sugar maples around the property are around maximum age and are also dying of old age. There were some giant elms also, but they died in the 60s. Not sure if the hornbeam is that old, but I think it probably is. No sign of decline whatsoever!
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Don
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by Don » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:39 am

Morgan-
Basically Ed is right. Not knowing the height of the fetching lass standing next to the hornbeam, I'm guessing that 4.5' would involve a large part of the tree's forking, in which case the smallest girth measurement obtainable below 4.5' is the rule. Ours, and American Forests' as well. To include the fused sapling (or unassociated sapling) in the measurement would be falsely inflating the height. Rather than trying to inflate the measurement, which is a an ethics problem all big tree hunter face, we try to measure in a manner that we may righteously face our accusers...: > }
-Don
PS:A lovely setting for the Hornbeam, and how nice to have so much historical data easily at hand!
Don Bertolette - President/Moderator, WNTS BBS
Restoration Forester (Retired)
Science Center
Grand Canyon National Park

BJCP Apprentice Beer Judge

View my Alaska Big Tree List Webpage at:
http://www.akbigtreelist.org

Joe

Re: American Hornbeam

Post by Joe » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:15 pm

morgan wrote:Just an old photo from around 1980.
kinda makes me feel old knowing that a photo from 1980 is old! (I just turned 64 so I've been singing/playing the Beetles tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCss0kZXeyE)

Joe

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Will Blozan
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by Will Blozan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Morgan,

Nice photo! In looking at the other photos of the trunk it appears the point measured (with you in the photo) would be around two stems of the main tree right? In that case you would HAVE to drop down lower on the trunk.

Will

morgan
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Re: American Hornbeam

Post by morgan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:39 pm

I'm glad to measure it lower on the trunk because it will only add to the girth. It's bigger on the lower trunk. Would never measure around the second tree, don't worry.

I'm going to go take an "after" picture from the same spot tomorrow. And I'll take a preliminary height from the road using my Nikon 440 and a surveyers transit. Now that I think about the 86 foot height the forester got in 2010 and look at the pic, I think 86 feet was the height before subtracting the base height. The back yard is slightly elevated compared to the front, and the forester was in the front yard way over to the left, about 200 feet from the tree, when he sighted it. Probably 6 feet or so, so......guessing 80 feet high for the tree. We'll see. But the house is 4 stories high not counting the basement, with 12 foot ceilings on each floor, and the tree is way taller than the house.

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