Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

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tomhoward
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by tomhoward » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:16 pm

NTS,

It would be good if the height of the tallest tree in NY could be confirmed. If the site with the tall Tuliptree on Long Island is sheltered from winds, the tree could easily be over 160 ft. tall. I hope the 167 ft. height is confirmed. NY is a big state with lots of potential, but too few people are accurately measuring trees or searching for old growth forests.

Tom Howard

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dbhguru
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by dbhguru » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:13 am

Tom,

The chances of the tuliptree in NY being 167 aren't very high. Dan Karpen used a tape and clinometer. However, it is most likely above 150. Dan does understand the challenges of trying to be accurate with tape and clinometer, and did his best. But we won't know for sure until someone with NTS training gets down there. I do everything I can to avoid big cities, so even though I'm only 150 miles away, the location might as well be on the dark side of the moon. This old boy doesn't mesh with the Big Apple.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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tomhoward
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by tomhoward » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:19 am

Bob,

I agree the chances of the Tuliptree being 167 ft. tall aren't high, but it would be nice if it could be confirmed by the NTS method. This fall, when the leaves are down, hopefully someone who knows the NY City area and with NTS training and equipment will measure this tree, or any other tall trees down there. There seem to be far fewer accurately measured 150 ft. trees in NY than in MA, even though NY is a much bigger state.

Tom

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ElijahW
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by ElijahW » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:23 pm

NTS,

I got up to Paul Smith's this weekend, with the intention of providing an update on the Elder's Grove. I measured only heights on the white pines, though the girths on these trees are impressive; they're probably all somewhere in the teens. In ascending order, here's what I came up with:

125.5'
125.5'
129.2'
132.2'
132.5'
136.9'
142.0'
143.5'
148.5'
152.6'
154.8'

I didn't measure the half-dozen or so remaining white pines within the Grove, and one or two were in the tallest section, so there may be two more pines over 150' left standing. The topmost point on the 154' tree was dead, though it looks to be in generally good health. I also measured a Black Spruce to 92.1', with a CBH of 6'5", a personal best. I did not locate the 95' balsam fir, and the tallest I found was 80.1'.

Overall, I enjoyed the visit, though the black flies, mosquitoes, and gnats probably equally enjoyed the nourishment I provided. It's really a unique place for being as far north as it is, and there's very little evidence of visitors. Hopefully, it'll stay that way.

On the way back, I measured a road-side jack pine (likely planted) just west of Cranberry Lake to 87.0', another personal best. I think I can do better when I get back to Lake Placid, but that will have to wait.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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tomhoward
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by tomhoward » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:47 pm

Elijah,

The 154.8 ft. White Pine is one of the tallest trees in NY. Very few trees in NY have been measured above 150 ft.

As far as I know, the 92.1 ft. Black Spruce and 87 ft. Jack Pine are the tallest that have been measured in NY.

Tom Howard

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dbhguru
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by dbhguru » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:13 pm

Elijah

Great! We've needed to get back there to the Elders Grove and update the measurements. I'm sure there are more 150s in NY than we've found. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that New York has barely been tapped. When I return from the West, i'm hoping that you,Tom, Erik, and I can get together and figure out a strategy for searching NY sites with potential. The Champlain Valley cottonwoods alone have me convinced that NYis our next big eastern frontier despite all that has been done to date.

We gave a gent in NYC by the name of Joe Charap who will be joining us soon. He is going to be an excellent measurer. The team grows.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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Erik Danielsen
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by Erik Danielsen » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:50 am

I'm hoping that's the case, Bob. I've also come across some environmental reports stating a few sites in WNY with no prior documentation to have forests with trees up to or exceeding 150' in height, though measuring technique was not specified and most likely tangent (these are gorges similar to Zoar but less accessible). I'm now living divided between WNY and Staten Island (an early report on some impressive trees there soon!) so hopefully I can connect with Joe Charap (and Jenny?). I'll be there primarily during the winter, in walking distance of what seems to be the tallest section of forest in the Greenbelt park and probably in NYC.

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ElijahW
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Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Post by ElijahW » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:01 pm

NTS,

I have a quick update on the Elder's Grove. I made a fairly thorough survey today, and believe what was missed last year has been covered. The Grove's former tallest tree, likely around 160' just a few years ago, now stands at 149.8'. The leader from last year is now dead, but the rest of the top looks fine. The Grove's new height champion exactly matches the old champ at 154.8'. This tree was not measured last year. The Elder's Grove still has many very old tagged White Pines, and most look to be in good shape, but it's hard to say just how much more life they have left in them. The following is a listing of the measurements I took today, along with tag numbers:

Tree # Height CBH

103 154.8' 13'4"
102 153.8' 12'
109 149.8' 14'10"
131 149.2' 10'1"
156 143.5'

I think I also found the tall balsam fir, which is alive and well, at 97.5' x 4'4". Enjoy what's left of Independence Day,

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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