Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

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edfrank
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by edfrank » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:15 pm

Don,

I think I am a splitter as needed to maintain what I see as a valid data set. I want to make sure the big tree lists maintain an internal integrity. On the other hand, I have championed the idea that we should be collecting data on multitrunk trees and trees of other weird forms. That was the point of the article I wrote: Multitrunk Trees, Woody Vines, and Other Forms http://www.nativetreesociety.org/multi/index_multi.htm I want to include these other forms in our dataset, even if they are not the idealized single trunk model and have proposed ways to measure them. The columns for inclusion of multitrunk trees are in the spreadsheet I wrote, and I have been working with Mitch Galehouse in his implementation of the NTS Trees database so that the multitrunk specimens cane be properly recorded. So I would counter that you can be both a splitter and be pushing for a broader inclusion and representation in the dataset.

There needs to be a balance between lumping and splitting when looking at sets of data. If you lump too many things together then they become a mish-mash of different objects that lack a coherent theme that is useful for expanding your understanding of the set. If there is too much splitting, then each individual is its own class and you can't look at relationships between objects as easily. So really I don't think it is a matter of splitters versus lumpers. We are splitting the data only to the degree needed to make it useful, and further lumping would only hurt the overall goals. I want to keep records for and acknowledge the superlatives of the different forms, but see it as a detriment to mix different form trees together in a single list.

Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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Larry Tucei
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by Larry Tucei » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:04 pm

Elijah, That is one big Cottonwood. One of only a few species to reach 20' or larger in Circumfrence. Larry

Jamelleigh

Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by Jamelleigh » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:53 pm

cottonwood.jpg
cottonwood.jpg (199.77 KiB) Viewed 1315 times
We stumbled upon this beauty Saturday. I am happy to share this photo with you all! ( i hope you can view it, I am new to this site and really unsure as to how I am supposed to properly post photos).

This is the Cottonwood in Moravia, NY. I read that some would have liked to view the original picture with a "scale" to size it. It was quite convienient that I just took this photo this past Saturday. This truely is a remarkable old growth tree, one that is a rarity in the north east and in the middle of a town to boot! Puts a big smile on my face :)

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adam.rosen
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by adam.rosen » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:22 am

Probably one of the kings of the finger lakes region! I'll bet it's less than 200 years old though! From its wide crown it looks to have grown in cleared land, not a forest.
We've seen other cottonwoods in the north east on that scale, that appear to have been planted or grown after the great forest was cut down--see the Pittsfield MA monstrosity, some of Ed's recent posts in the Lake Champlain region, and I've got a 20 footer in my back pocket, haven't posted yet, but definately appears to have been planted as a yard tree for a circa 1800 home in South Woodstock, VT.
One Cottonwood that has old growth characteristics of a high canopy and beautiful tappered trunk is the Massachusetts runner up, in Bartholemew's Cobble, which can be viewed on the Massachusetts page of this website.

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ElijahW
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by ElijahW » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:15 pm

NTS, Jamelleigh,

Thanks for posting your picture. I got back down to Moravia this afternoon and took some more pictures (with my new Sony HX9V!). I'll not comment further on the nature of the tree (single-stem or multi-stem) other than to say I don't know. For your viewing pleasure:

Elijah
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Populus deltoides with hat for scale
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"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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edfrank
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by edfrank » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:55 pm

Elijah,

It is your call as to whether it is a single or double as you have seen the tree in person and you should make it. My best guess based upon the photos is that it is a single trunk specimen, but I have not seen it in person.

Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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dbhguru
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by dbhguru » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:19 am

Elijah,

Considering what you've shown us in the photos, the vast majority of tree measurers would call it a single tree. I don't think you are going to get any criticism making that call, and it is your call.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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ElijahW
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by ElijahW » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:35 pm

NTS,

Tom Howard and I stopped by to see the tree this afternoon, and it is now dead. The main trunk is still intact, but all limbs have been removed, and no leaves are present. I don't know when exactly it died, but I would guess within the last year. Hopefully the owner will keep what is left intact, as it is still impressive; however, it would also be very interesting to see what the pith situation is at ground level and to maybe get a ring count if the tree were to be fully removed.

In the interests of accurate record keeping, should this tree be removed from the database, or should I just make a note indicating its demise? Obviously both the crown spread and overall height have been reduced, but not the circumference. Thoughts?

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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tsharp
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by tsharp » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:28 am

ElijahW:
Questioned how to handle a deceased tree that has been previously entered in the Trees Database.
In the interests of accurate record keeping, should this tree be removed from the database, or should I just make a note indicating its demise? Obviously both the crown spread and overall height have been reduced, but not the circumference. Thoughts?
I presently handle my submissions two ways. If it is a tree that was included as one of many that was used to describe a site I just make a notation under the comment section on the original entry indicating when the tree died. If it was a stand alone tree I delete it and keep personal list of "historical" or "late/great" trees. I have kind of been hoping that Steve/Mitch Galehouse could come up with an idea of how better handle this so one would know if the average or rankings generated by the Trees database are dead or alive trees.

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Don
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Re: Moravia, NY, Cottonwood

Post by Don » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:41 pm

It occurs to me that Ed's comments last year approached the topic well...the point I'd make is that we needn't (shouldn't) have the same 'rules' for a database, as for a big tree registry...the former should be inclusive (albeit, asterisked or otherwise "fielded") and the latter, by definition exclusive (although I promote asterisked entries).
As to the passing of the monster of Moravia...I too would love to see the groundline cross-section!!! And yes, by its nature, cottonwoods are structurally deficient as they attain maturity and likely to be a hazard in it's current location. A professional arborist should make that decision.
Don Bertolette - President/Moderator, WNTS BBS
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