Washington Grove City Park, NY

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tomhoward
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by tomhoward » Sun May 27, 2012 2:01 pm

Elijah, Larry, Ents,

Awesome report. Elijah's estimates confirm my visual guestimates of the great height of the Washington Grove trees. Washington Grove is possibly the tallest Oak forest in NY state, and the 117 + ft. Black Oak Elijah measured is the tallest accurately measured Black Oak in NY. As I suspected, Tuliptree seems to be the tallest tree in WG. The 100.6 + ft. Sassafras is the tallest of that species I know of in upstate NY.

Tallest trees I know of in NY (all these height records are from NTS):

White Oak 121.6 Vanderbilt Estate, Hyde Park (WG possibly taller)
Black Oak 106.3 Welwyn Preserve, Long Island (WG beats this at over 117 ft., and very likely 120-125 ft.)
Northern Red Oak 140.3 Zoar Valley Gallery of Giants in western NY (this part of Zoar Valley is a mixed forest of many species with only a small number of Oaks)
Tuliptree 156 Zoar Valley Gallery of Giants
Butternut 107.6 Green Lakes State Park here in Onondaga Co. (measured by Jess Riddle May 1, 2011 - Washington Grove could have Butternut 110-115 ft. tall - these may not only be the tallest Butternuts in NY, but the tallest in existence - the tallest known to NTS is 115 ft. in North Carolina)
Sassafras 107.3 Welwyn Preserve (WG will probably beat this)
Black Cherry 131.1 Lily Dale, Chautauqua Co.
Sugar Maple 127.6 Zoar Valley

This fall after the leaves are down, it would be great if we all could get together at Washington Grove to get more accurate heights. I'm convinced that we will have even greater heights. Also, it would be good if Neil Pederson could join us at WG with his increment borer - as it looks like the oldest Black Oaks in existence could be there.

I agree with Elijah that these magnificent Black Oaks in WG should be treasured and preserved as should this entire priceless old growth forest.

In a few weeks I'll be able to post some photos of WG.

Larry, thank you for creating the excellent document on Elijah's visit.

Looking forward to a great measuring outing this Fall!

Tom Howard

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ElijahW
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by ElijahW » Mon May 28, 2012 1:43 pm

Tom,

I'm looking forward to another visit after leaf-off (or maybe sooner). I'd love to meet up with you, Larry, and whoever else wants to join if possible. I'll keep it in mind, definitely. I wasn't aware of how close the butternuts were to an NTS height record. I only measured one, and that was a straight-up shot. Juglans cinerea needs to be a focus along with the oaks, I guess. I'm smiling while I type this. Washington Grove could become a true gem, numbers-wise, in addition to its recreational and ecological value. Thanks for the encouragement. Enjoy this Memorial Day.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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Larry Tucei
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by Larry Tucei » Mon May 28, 2012 9:47 pm

All, Great report! Washington Grove is truly a special place. Not many places left with trees like that. We have Black Oak in Central Ms., but nothing in that age group. Awesome! Larry

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MickR
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by MickR » Mon May 28, 2012 10:58 pm

Putting this park on my list of "must sees"; it sounds epic.

greif
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by greif » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:01 pm

Attn. Tom Howard, I don't see an email to contact you directly, but my subject will be of interest to others, I think.
Tom, I was hoping I might get you to come out to Powder Mills Park and take a look at a corner of the park that has an unusual couple (maybe up to 5 ) acres of trees. The area is bordered by steep ravines on 3 sides and has a very dense canopy of almost exclusively Oak (what kinds of oak is one reason I would like you to see this area, as I am no good at telling one from another). There are lots of fallen trees, standing snags, and I think hole and mound topology. The forest floor has almost no grass, shrubs, ferns or anything except oak leaves. This area is on a border of Powder Mills Park and several trees at the border that are 4 to 4.5 foot in diameter, one in particular near the bottom of a ravine (probably not the best growing conditions for a large tree, so maybe this is a very old one). On the other side of the hill, at the bottom is a fallen tree (oak) that fell on the trail, which I got a disc from when the park cleared the trail several years ago, and for the 18 inch diam disc I counted 187 rings.
Tom, since you are local I thought we might get together. My home phone is 585-218-0193
Thanks,
Gary Reif

greif
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by greif » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:44 pm

RE: possible old growth , Rochester NY area
I forgot, I have some photos of the Powder Mills Park area I am talking about in the previous post at;
http://www.powdermillspark.com/bigtreea ... index.html
The hilltop/ravine area has 3 or so oaks around 4- 4.5 ft dia, lots of 2 and 3 ft diam oaks.

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tomhoward
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by tomhoward » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:59 pm

Gary,


Ever since you posted about the oak grove in Powder Mills Park in 2009, I’ve been wondering about that site. It looks like an old growth oak grove, a forest type that is extremely rare in upstate NY.

Thank you very much for reviving this topic on the Bulletin Board. I definitely want to come out there, and see this grove. From your description this is old growth, and 187 years (the ring count you got on a cross-section from a fallen oak) is an old growth age in both the Syracuse area (where I live) and the Rochester area. I’d like to get out there this fall, but I don’t have a car, so I’ll probably take a bus to Rochester. I’ll be out of town this weekend, so I’ll call you next week. Thank you for giving me your number.

Tom Howard

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dbhguru
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by dbhguru » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:24 pm

Tom,

Great job! We appreciate the work you are doing. You are a true Ent. I wish you could make it over to the advanced tree measuring workshop on Oct 12th. Looks like we're going to have a big group.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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tomhoward
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by tomhoward » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:30 am

Bob,

I wish I could go to the Oct. 12 workshop but it is totally impossible this year. Maybe next year?

On a better note, I spent last weekend in Old Forge in the Adirondacks with some friends, and we explored 2 beautiful old growth pine groves right on NY 28 - Cathedral Pines and Raquette Lake Red Pines - I'll report about them soon.

Tom

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ElijahW
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Re: Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by ElijahW » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:33 pm

NTS,

I made a clandestine visit to the Washington Grove Friday, November 23, to measure a few more trees and to re-measure some from my previous outing with Larry Champoux. I apologize for not giving a heads-up to Larry and Tom Howard, and, for that matter, any ents who may have wanted to join me, but this was an unplanned visit. Please, ents, if and when you are in the Rochester area, take some time and walk through this forest. It is a special place, and you will not only see some of the largest oaks and northern hardwoods in this part of the country, but probably some of the oldest, as well. Balding bark and windswept, gnarled crowns abound.

Anyway, here are the numbers I came up with, using my Nikon Prostaff 440, Suunto clinometer, scientific calculator, and metal tape. Sorry, no pictures – I had my camera with me but forgot to use it – oops!

Common Name Height Girth

Scots pine 66.0’ 3’10”
Hophornbeam 56.7’ 3’3”
Sassafras 99.9’ 4’11”
Sassafras 101.9’ 4’10”
Sassafras 104.7’ 5’
Butternut 110.1’ 5’10”
Tuliptree 121.0’
Tuliptree 125.5’ (126’ in earlier visit) 8’7”
Northern Red Oak 110.2’ 8’3”
Northern Red Oak 120.8’ 10’3”
Black Oak 114.6’
White Oak 115.5’ 6’11”
White Oak 120.2’ 7’5”
Sugar Maple 112.1’ 7’4”
Black Cherry 120.3’ 6’4”
Exotic cherry 109.7’ 5’2”

Rucker 10 Height Index: 110.4’
Rucker 5Height Index: 120.2’
Rucker 10 Girth Index: 6.3’

The tallest tree measured was a tuliptree, and I do not think it is likely to be topped. All three species of oaks appear to be older, but also seem max out around 120’. I am guessing that the wind and winter weather are the main reasons for this. Though the tallest black oak I measured came in at 114.6’, I expect at least one will top 120’. The tallest trees seem to be grouped either near the Nunda Blvd. entrance or in the vicinity of the outer trail near the tennis court, which is not far from the entrance.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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