Washington Grove City Park, NY

Moderators: edfrank, dbhguru

User avatar
adam.rosen
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Washington Grove City Park, NY

Post by adam.rosen » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:18 am

This terrific urban old growth spot now has a face book page. Many pictures that ENTS will recognize as fine old growth.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Friends-o ... 7090453217

Enjoy!

User avatar
tomhoward
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by tomhoward » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:17 pm

Adam,

The pictures of this grove look great. I've been wondering about this site ever since Bruce Kershner made a brief report about it some years ago. I've been looking for old growth oak groves in upstate NY that could be similar to the old growth oak groves in North Syracuse. Do you know of any age or tree size, or species data about this site?

Tom Howard

User avatar
ElijahW
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:04 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by ElijahW » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:57 pm

Tom,

When I visited the park a couple of years ago, I was struck by the number and size of the old oaks. If I remember correctly, the largest trees were generally the black and red oaks - some of the biggest of their kind I've seen. There's also several tall butternut and sassafras trees, and a few American chestnut sprouts. The variety of hardwood species is very similar to the Wizard of Oz grove in N. Syracuse, though the Rochester trees are, on average, much larger girth-wise.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

User avatar
adam.rosen
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by adam.rosen » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:33 pm

I don't have too much to add to that. I plan on measuring a black oak there--the largest. I used my not-so-trusty stick method to get some heights in the 120's, but more work needs to be done in that department. The oaks are black, white and red. There are also some nice maples. I did a ring count on a smaller downed oak and got 220+ on a smaller oak. I emphasize the smaller! The large black oak there is huge! The bole on it goes up and up with no interruptions. Funny how groves can have one dominant tree. Liverpool grove is the same way with it's huge maple.

Also--Washington grove has a very tall black cherry that must be 9'CBH. I want to measure that particular tree--the largest black cherry I have ever seen.

User avatar
adam.rosen
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by adam.rosen » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:42 pm

Adam's father in Washington Grove.
Attachments
Hi All, here is a photo of Rochester Native and my father, Rick Rosen, in the grove.
Hi All, here is a photo of Rochester Native and my father, Rick Rosen, in the grove.

User avatar
tomhoward
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by tomhoward » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:17 pm

Adam, Elijah,

I definitely have to visit this grove!

Old growth oak groves are my specialty, and this site looks like a sister to the old growth oak groves in North Syracuse. In North Syracuse the oaks are also black, white, and red.

We have tall Sassafras (85-90 ft. here), and American Chestnut sprouts. There is Butternut in North Syracuse, but not so much in the oak groves. In the Tuliptree Cathedral in Green Lakes State Park is a Butternut over 20” dbh and 107 ft. tall.

The stick method tends to exaggerate tree heights, and a 120 ft. oak is a stretch in upstate NY. As far as I know the tallest in upstate NY are: White Oak, John Lennon Tree in Wizard of Oz grove (115 ft.), Black Oak in North Syracuse Cemetery Oak Grove (105 ft.), Red Oak in Zoar Valley (140 ft.). (In central NY the tallest Red Oaks I know of are about 118 ft. tall in the old growth mixed hardwood forest of Green Lakes). According to ENTS records that I have seen, the tallest White Oak in NY is 121.6 ft. tall at Vanderbilt Estate downstate, tallest Black Oak in NY 106 ft. tall at Welwyn Preserve on Long Island, tallest Red Oak 140 ft. at Zoar Valley.

The 220+ ring count you got on the smaller oak is awesome! Was that tree a White Oak? White Oak usually grows slower than Red Oak or Black Oak. Size and age do not always correspond; in other words, bigger is not always older. The largest trees in the Wizard of Oz grove are Red Oaks that are no older than 150 years (and they go to 4 ft. dbh); the Black Oaks there are no older. But the smaller White Oaks in that grove reach estimated ages of 200 or more years. The highest ring count I got there was from a long dead White Oak snag stump only 18” diameter with 220 rings. The highest ring count in the North Syracuse Cemetery Oak Grove was also from a long dead White Oak snag stump 18” diameter with 190 rings. The oldest trees, by estimate, in both oak groves are not oaks but Black Gums (in Wizard of Oz grove, Anne Frank Black Gum 20” dbh, 94.5 ft. tall and estimated 240 years old, and in North Syracuse Cemetery Oak Grove Black Gum 19.9” dbh, 78 ft. tall, super-gnarly and estimated 300 years old). Do you have Black Gums in Washington Grove?

I’m looking forward to your measurements of the giant Black Oak in Washington Grove! I absolutely have to see that tree! The great Black Oak in North Syracuse Cemetery Oak Grove (45.8” dbh, 105 ft. tall) is the largest forest-grown Black Oak I know of in central NY. The largest Black Oak I’ve ever seen is an open-grown tree in Mt. Adnah Cemetery in Fulton – single trunk 74” dbh but only about 70 ft. tall, and no more than about 200 years old.

The Wizard of Oz grove also has some magnificent old growth Red Maples, including a shaggy twisty one 26.7” dbh and at least 110 ft. tall.

I’d like to see the big Black Cherry at Washington Grove, too. The largest Black Cherries in this area are about the same size, but in the old growth Lily Dale Grove (Conifer-Northern Hardwood type) in Chautauqua County are much larger ones, Black Cherries to over 12 ft. girth and over 130 ft. tall.

Tom Howard

User avatar
adam.rosen
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by adam.rosen » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:39 pm

Hi Tom, you've got me on a mission for my next trip to Rochester. I also like the American Beech in my parent's front yard. 221"CBH--almost as big your black oak!

User avatar
adam.rosen
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by adam.rosen » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:40 pm

Tom, I dunno, maybe you can hop a greyhound for an afternoon and we can measure the place together. I'll let you know when I'm going to be there next.

User avatar
tomhoward
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:15 pm

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by tomhoward » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:54 am

Adam,

I sure would like to get out there to see those great trees. I think spring would be the best time to go. The Greyhound fare is reasonable.

Tom Howard

larrychampoux
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:53 am

Re: Washington Grove City Park

Post by larrychampoux » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:05 am

Greetings all,

My name is Larry Champoux and I live next to Washington Grove. I am a volunteer with a group called the Friends of Washington Grove (FOWG), whose mission is to restore and protect this unique habitat.

I had the pleasure of meeting Tom Howard by accident one day last week while he was researching the Grove. I look forward to seeing his report here.

I have passed along this link to other members of the FOWG. If ever any of you or perhaps a group of you wish to come to the Grove to do some more measuring of our great trees, I would be happy to arrange a time for you to also meet some members of our volunteer group, or perhaps even our City Forester, Brian Liberti who some of you may already know.

Please come back to the Grove.

Thanks,

Larry Champoux
larrychampoux@gmail.com

Post Reply

Return to “New York”